Evidence of meeting #45 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ethereum.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Aidan Hyman  Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.
Brian Mosoff  Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital
Evan Thomas  Head of Legal, Wealthsimple Crypto, Wealthsimple
Adam Garetson  General Counsel and Chief Legal Officer, WonderFi Technologies Inc.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

I call this meeting to order.

I'd like to wish everyone a good Monday morning.

Welcome to meeting No. 45 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, September 26, 2022, the committee is meeting to study the current state of blockchain technology in Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of Thursday, June 23, 2022.

With us today, we have as witnesses, from Chainsafe Systems Incorporated, Aidan Hyman, chief operating officer, by video conference.

It's nice to see you, Mr. Hyman.

We have, from Ether Capital, Brian Mosoff, chief executive officer and president of Canadian Web3 Council. We have, from Wealthsimple, Evan Thomas, head of legal at Wealthsimple Crypto. Finally, from WonderFi Technologies Incorporated, we have Adam Garetson, general counsel and chief legal officer.

Welcome to all of you. Thanks for taking the time to address this committee. We're looking forward to hearing your five-minute testimonies, followed by a discussion with MPs.

Without further ado, we'll start with Mr. Hyman from Chainsafe.

The floor is yours.

11:05 a.m.

Aidan Hyman Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Thank you very much, everyone. It's an honour to be here today and to be able to speak to you all about blockchain technology here in Canada.

Good afternoon. My name is Aidan. I am one of the co-founders and the CEO at ChainSafe Systems. ChainSafe was founded here in Toronto to provide open-source developer tools that accelerate web3 adoption. We have become one of the world's top blockchain research and development firms and now have over 120 team members across the world.

To understand the full potential of blockchain in the context of the Canadian economy, let's start from the beginning and talk about Ethereum, the second-largest blockchain. Ethereum is a favourite of developers because of its potential applications, the smart contracts that automatically execute when conditions are met.

Toronto is one of the major homes of the Ethereum project, with almost half of the Ethereum co-founders being Canadian, mostly notably Vitalik Buterin, the leading founder of Ethereum. We've seen many great Canadian companies and projects being sprung out of the vision and idea that is web3. There have been some amazing conferences in Canada that bring people here from all over the world to learn, connect and collaborate on the technology that is changing the world.

Ethereum has also experienced tremendous growth, with the 2021 report by Electric Capital verifying that there are over 18,000 full-time developers dedicated to blockchain tech, with over 34,000 new contributors in the same time.

You may or may not have heard about FTX and what has happened in the last few weeks. Understandably, there is a lot of talk about crypto and regulation, talk that has been happening for a while, but it has been heightened because of this incident, with many taking a negative stance about crypto and blockchain technology altogether.

This is a pretty harmful stance to take, because frauds have been around since the beginning of time. It is also critical to separate the technology from bad actors. Fraud is illegal no matter how it happens or what technology is used to commit it.

Second, it is also important to understand the difference between cryptocurrencies and blockchain. Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are digital currencies that are verified using blockchain technology to record and secure every transaction. A cryptocurrency can be used as a digital form of cash to pay for everyday items as well as larger purchases like cars and homes.

Blockchain, on the other hand, is a set of digital records that are duplicated across a network of participating computers. Blockchain technology can power new models for change, advancing humanity and helping social organizations create impact. An example of this is the World Food Programme, which deployed cutting-edge blockchain technology in a refugee camp in Jordan to allow for quick and easy transactions by Syrian refugees to purchase food and supplies. This technology can make sure that humanitarian aid is not misappropriated and that food security is improved for those in vulnerable situations.

Canada is well situated to be a leader in the blockchain space, not just because Ethereum was founded here but because we have the talent and resources to make this a reality. It may be hard to see right now, but it is definitely possible. We see this all the time. It's hard to see the full extent and use cases for technology early in its history. Some of you may have heard of Snowdevil, which was an online snowboard shop that two years later led to the birth of Shopify. The now 16-year-old company has created countless jobs for Canadians.

I mentioned Ethereum earlier, and the potential of the technology. It has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of jobs in Canada. Let's together make Canada the number one leader in blockchain.

We have emerged as a leading crypto nation based on innovation, low energy costs, high Internet speeds and favourable regulatory regimes. While it ranks third in the world behind the U.S. and the U.K. when it comes to embracing blockchain technology, Ethereum blockchain technology adoption around the world, with a wide variety of applications in finance, government, legal, health, education, space, national and multinational cryptocurrencies, energy and others, is unparalleled.

Canada has fallen behind other jurisdictions like the U.S. and Europe when it comes to digital asset policies, but it's really important to think about meaningful regulation that creates regulatory clarity and clear standards so that businesses can flourish in Canada. It is an opportunity of a generation to have access to a new net industry, and we can have it right here in Canada.

This is the future. Let's build it together.

Thank you very much for listening to my testimony today. I very much look forward to hearing any questions that might come up.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Mosoff, from Ether Capital.

11:05 a.m.

Brian Mosoff Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Thank you, and hello, everyone.

My name is Brian Mosoff. I am the CEO of Ether Capital, a Toronto-based, publicly listed company focused on Ethereum infrastructure and its ecosytem.

I am also the president of the Canadian Web3 Council, which is an education group that's here to service folks like yourselves on understanding the technology, its potential for Canada and thoughtful regulation.

I have also been an adviser to the Ontario Securities Commission and IIROC. I have helped Purpose Investments, which is an entity related to Ether Capital. I put together the world's first Bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs.

I would say that we've done some things very well as a country. We've led. Other countries did not come first to the ETF market. We did that in Canada. In terms of structured products, we've done incredibly well.

I've been around the industry for about a decade now. I've watched it grow from a small asset, which was basically just Bitcoin back in 2012 or 2013 when I first started following the space. The entire industry was worth just a few hundred million dollars. At the time, that seemed quite large, but by today's standards, the tokens themselves—there are hundreds or thousands of tokens or cryptocurrencies—based on the price—which fluctuates, of course—have near a trillion dollars of total market cap.

The industry has grown into hundreds of businesses and new verticals. We're no longer talking about an industry that's just a few players and a few hundred million dollars; we're talking about some of the world's leading venture capital firms allocating billions of dollars over the coming years—and over the previous number of years—into this industry.

I think many technologists—people like myself—view this as the future, as society moves from a world based on assets in specific jurisdictions to a more Internet-friendly, global population. You have communication tools like Twitter that are disrupting local media. Now we have digital currencies that are perhaps challenging central banking policy.

The assets are volatile—there's no question. I'm not saying that today people will replace the way they pay their rent with something like bitcoin or ether, but I think there's a societal shift, as we move to a more digital economy, to embrace these technologies. I think it's important that Canada recognizes this as an opportunity. There's no question that it's going to be volatile. It's going to be a scary time, as the world we know today will not look the same in 10 years.

One thing I think a fair bit about is that cryptocurrencies get tangled up with blockchain and things that are making the headlines, or about the volatility price of these assets. When I think about the future of Canada's economy, I imagine how our dollars are going to move to something more digital, whether we call that a central bank digital currency or a stablecoin, which is regulated in a certain way. I think that we can't and shouldn't design that technology or those dollars—and it would be dangerous to imagine building them—without recognizing that a global financial system is being created here in an alternate universe. That is happening largely around these digital currencies.

The opportunity to program the money and to have developers build more transparent tools and ways of trading or interacting with these assets outside of siloed, black-box institutions is very important. I think it's actually an opportunity for Canada to get this right, to ensure that we remain relevant and that people still have a desire for our currencies. That's something I'm very passionate about.

What is at the heart of Bitcoin? What is the heart of Ethereum? Why are we so excited about this? Why do you have a number of members in the industry on this call right now?

It's that we see that these assets are more than just a single token with a price. I think of specifically Ethereum as a global settlement layer for all sorts of activities.

In the early days, perhaps it was just people trading or moving ether back and forth between accounts. Over time, we've seen verticals emerge that have grown into their own industries. They may have started in a petri dish and were worth just a small amount of dollars, but we ended up with NFTs, which is the ability to have a piece of art tokenized on a blockchain, whether it's a digitally native piece of art or someone trying to take a painting to tokenize that asset to be swapped or fractionalized.

We have the metaverse. We also have something called stablecoins, which are tokenized dollars. Most that exist in this industry are tokenized U.S. dollars. It used to be only a few billion dollars, and now we have hundreds of billions of dollars moving around these ecosystems.

I think about Ethereum as this global settlement layer for all sorts of activities, all sorts of assets. With some of them, over time we're going to have the spectrum of things that may not make sense to us today or to many in this room. It's hard to imagine maybe why an NFT or a digital piece of art holds value, or why the metaverse is something exciting, but then you have something like stablecoins and businesses like Visa coming along and saying that maybe this is a better form of settlement between their data centres, so we will have this spectrum of activities taking place and being cleared on this single layer, which is Ethereum. It could be something that's not Ethereum, but today it does seem that Ethereum is what is emerging to be the leading platform.

I think this is really exciting. There's no question that the recent news around FTX is unfortunate for retail investors, for companies or businesses or pension funds that had invested in that leading platform. This was a platform that existed outside of Canada, outside of the U.S., although there technically was a U.S. registration. As Mr. Hyman was saying, we need to recognize or separate that fraud is fraud, and that's different from the industry, and that in a way there is no regulation that will pass such that if someone on the inside of the C suite level wants to be nefarious and go out of their way to hide certain activities, we can prevent that.

We're here today to lend our time, as much of it as needed, whether it's today or people reaching out to us via email, to help educate, to help figure out what the opportunities are for Canada and how we move this industry forward, and to recognize that despite the price of today, the industry is not going to go away, and we need to be thoughtful about policy and how to move this forward so we are well positioned over the next five years or decade to play a meaningful role in this technology.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much.

We will move to Mr. Thomas from Wealthsimple.

11:15 a.m.

Evan Thomas Head of Legal, Wealthsimple Crypto, Wealthsimple

Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Evan Thomas. I am the head of legal for Wealthsimple's crypto trading platform. I thank the committee for inviting me today. I hope today to help the committee better understand the Canadian crypto trading industry.

Wealthsimple is a Canadian financial services company. We offer various financial tools, including managed investing and do-it-yourself stock trading, in addition to crypto trading. We serve over three million Canadians across all of our products. We employ over a thousand people. We have a head office in Toronto, but being remote first, we have employees across all 10 provinces.

We have over 30 employees who work exclusively on crypto trading, but many, many other employees support our crypto trading platform among our various other products. To offer crypto trading, we have mobile and web applications that make it simple for Canadians to buy, sell, stake, deposit and withdraw crypto assets that exist in different blockchains. Our clients can keep their crypto with us. We hold it on their behalf like a traditional investment, or they can withdraw it to a blockchain wallet under their control.

Regarding our crypto clients, 77% are under the age of 40. However, I emphasize that these are not young people betting their life savings on crypto. The average crypto account value on our platform is about $1,600. Three-quarters of our clients have invested less than $1,000 in crypto. You see, most crypto clients see crypto as part of their overall investment portfolio. Four out of five also have accounts with us for do-it-yourself stock trading or managed investing.

I highlight, however, that we view blockchain and Web3 as more than simply investment opportunities. We believe strongly that they will have expanding applications. Our goal is to make this exciting technology more accessible to Canadians.

Regarding the broader Canadian crypto trading industry, a recent Ontario Securities Commission survey found that 12% of adult Canadians currently own crypto assets. That is about 3.75 million Canadians. A recent Bank of Canada paper has very similar numbers. It found that the number of Canadian bitcoin owners nearly tripled between 2020 and 2021.

On the platform side—that is, the platforms that buy and sell crypto—there are about 11 Canadian-based crypto trading platforms, including ours. Most serve Canadians primarily, if not exclusively. There are also some companies that buy and sell crypto but don't hold it for clients. An example would be operators of bitcoin teller machines. There are also foreign platforms that serve many countries, including Canada. At least 15 of those platforms are in the Canadian market. In fact, three out of the four trading platforms most used by Canadians are headquartered outside of Canada.

Canada is a global leader in the regulation of crypto trading platforms like ours. Platforms that hold crypto for clients must register with Canadian securities regulators and comply with specific requirements. For example, we must keep at least 80% of our clients' crypto assets with regulated and insured crypto custodians. We do ongoing due diligence on every crypto asset that we list. We create and update risk disclosures for every asset. We hold our clients' crypto assets in trust. We do not lend out or use our clients' property, ever. We are also registered with FINTRAC, Canada's financial intelligence agency, and we have built a robust anti-money-laundering and sanctions compliance program.

This regulatory framework evolved primarily in response to the 2019 failure of a Canadian crypto exchange called QuadrigaCX. As a result, Canada is further ahead than most jurisdictions when it comes to the regulation of crypto trading.

That brings me to the failures of FTX and other crypto businesses that my colleagues have mentioned.

In each case, there were failures of governance, compliance, risk management and, in some cases, failures of ethics and honesty. These risk and failures, I emphasize, are organizational, not technological; that is, these businesses fail because of how they run their businesses, not because of blockchain or crypto.

The regulations that we have in Canada are very rightly directed at preventing these organizational risks and failures. While there is a strong regulatory foundation in Canada, it is a work in progress. For example, as of today, no foreign platform has registered under the Canadian securities regulatory framework. Meanwhile, nine out of 11 Canadian platforms have. This highlights the need for clear and consistently applied regulations for crypto trading platforms that serve Canadians, whether based inside or outside of Canada. This requires effective coordination between agencies and federal and provincial governments.

There are many areas where Parliament can play a role with respect to payment, asset custody, insurance, taxation and even bankruptcy loss.

Wealthsimple and I are grateful for the opportunity to assist the committee today. I am now available to answer your questions.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas.

Finally, we'll move to Mr. Garetson from WonderFi Technologies. The floor is yours.

11:20 a.m.

Adam Garetson General Counsel and Chief Legal Officer, WonderFi Technologies Inc.

Thank you, and good morning.

I'd like to thank the committee for undertaking this study as well as for inviting me to comment in the context.

My name is Adam Garetson, and I am general counsel and chief legal officer of WonderFi Technologies Inc., a publicly traded TSX-listed company. We employ over 85 people in Canada. We have over a quarter of a billion dollars in client digital assets under management, and over $6.5 billion have traded in digital assets over our platform to date.

WonderFi primarily allows our users to participate in the buying and selling of digital assets that are based on blockchain technology. WonderFi owns and operates two crypto asset trading platforms, or CTPs, that are registered with the Canadian Securities Administrators, mainly Bitbuy Technologies Inc. and Coinberry Limited.

As a little bit more about me, I have previously served as director and senior counsel at RBC Capital Markets, where my focus was on investment banking and global market trading. I also practised securities law in the Toronto offices of Blake, Cassels & Graydon for a number of years prior to that. I have previously served as a committee member of the Canadian Bankers Association securities legislation specialist group.

I am very honoured and happy to be here speaking to you all today.

In my view, it is highly unlikely that digitization is slowing down or going away in the future. I strongly believe that digital assets are here to stay and will, over time, replace a wide variety of traditional assets. Related thereto, blockchain technology will replace legacy infrastructure.

I've often heard blockchain characterized as “a solution looking for a problem”. The technology certainly has a wide range of potential use cases and has found applicability and significant adoption in the financial services sector, where WonderFi and some of the other panellists here today participate. I see blockchain as the infrastructure technology that has the potential to underlie a number of different use cases, including virtual currencies and other digital assets, the most prominent of which is bitcoin.

Regulation, to me, drives investor confidence. It backstops the development of a reliable infrastructure, and here in Canada, as you've heard already, we have the opportunity to be, and continue to be, a global leader if we get the regulation right. We've seen this initially through the adoption of regulation over crypto assets by the Ontario Securities Commission and the other provincial securities commissions with respect to digital assets. That's helped provide stability to the Canadian cryptocurrency trading sector through a recent period of heightened market volatility in the space.

In short, we need a made-in-Canada solution for digital asset market infrastructure, and our company is diligently working on it. Related to that, industry partnership with legislators to ensure the establishment of coherent regulation for blockchain technology is paramount, primarily in ensuring user adoption of compliant and regulated products, which is, in my view, the best way to combat bad actors in the space. Effectively, that means we incentivize the use of compliant products through assurances provided by regulation.

While my focus on blockchain is in the context of financial services, in my view it's important to take a broader long-term view of the technology itself, as opposed to any one sector or asset. Overly burdensome approaches to regulation run a significant risk of stifling Canadian innovation, such as by lumping low-risk applications of the technology in with more high-risk speculative activity or inadvertently providing monopolies on the development to more traditional players that can afford costs associated with adhering to undue burdens.

Inconsistent application of regulation can also be potentially problematic. Some existing laws may apply already and can be layered onto blockchain-related activity, whereas in other places there may be legislative gaps.

We should also look to what other regulators are doing around the world to achieve a measure of consistency. With respect to blockchain technology and digital assets layered on top of that, I would encourage the committee to take an approach to regulation that leverages existing laws and provides modification to existing rules where necessary, and not attempt to legislate via one fell swoop. That approach, in my view, is cumbersome and frankly unfit to keep pace with a more rapid evolution of the space and the technology.

Paired with regulation of the industry comes a requisite for enforcement, primarily against non-compliant actors. That would be particularly those who operate on an offshore and unregulated basis. I'd also like to advocate dedicated financial and human resources for enforcement in this space, including at the level of provincial securities regulators.

I thank you for your time today. I'm happy to expand on these and other topics through questions.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Garetson.

Without further ado, we will now begin the round of questions.

Mr. Perkins, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for appearing today on this very important topic.

Mr. Garetson and for everyone else, in the Dark Ages in the nineties, I spent some time on Bay Street in a highly regulated financial services industry, both in the regulated banking business and also in the asset-based finance industry. We've had, and some of the witnesses here today have mentioned this, people with ethical challenges since the beginning of time looking to make a buck and take advantage of the people whom Barnum singled out in his famous saying. We had Enron, a publicly traded company. People chose to commit fraud quarter after quarter in that company. Obviously, everybody is familiar with Bre-X and the Ponzi schemes of Mr. Madoff and many others, so this is nothing new. What we have is a new platform that people are coping with, and we're in the early stages of regulation.

Maybe I'll start with Mr. Garetson.

Can you tell me exactly the state of the current regulation? You're referring to the fact, as some of the other witnesses have, that some are publicly traded, and obviously there are securities laws for the publicly traded companies, but some, I believe, like Wealthsimple, are privately held by primarily an institutional or a majority shareholder, which I think is Power Financial. Can you tell me how the Canadian system is set up currently to regulate crypto bitcoin tokens and that new industry?

11:25 a.m.

General Counsel and Chief Legal Officer, WonderFi Technologies Inc.

Adam Garetson

Yes. I'm happy to respond to that.

To start, off the bat, as you had mentioned, WonderFi Technologies is a public company, so we are subject to the same laws, rules and requirements of any other traditional publicly traded TSX-listed company, including displaying audited financial statements quarterly and annually, etc. We have continuous disclosure obligations as a company.

More specifically, with respect to the crypto and digital assets base, as I was saying in my opening remarks, WonderFi owns and operates two crypto asset trading platforms.

That is a term of art at this point. What that effectively means is that our company owns and operates two restricted dealers as defined under traditional securities laws set out by the securities administrators across the country. Those entities need to be registered across the country in every jurisdiction in which we choose to operate. We're primarily governed by legislation set out in securities laws, including National Instrument 31-103.

What does that really mean? It means we need to be registered with FINTRAC as a money services business. We need to maintain bonding insurance requirements that are set out by statute. We need to maintain working capital requirements. We need to have a chief compliance officer and an ultimate designate person who are registered with the securities commission as well. We are not allowed to act on a discretionary basis on behalf of clients. We are not allowed to have margin or loans or leverage in our system. We have to set out a number of different policies and procedures with respect to our operating companies, including as it relates to conflict of interest. We have to do KYC and AML for our users. We have to establish that opening an account for our users to trade is appropriate for them. Again, appropriateness is a term of art. We also have to do trade-by-trade suitability.

Essentially, we have thresholds determining which clients can trade, based on their level of vulnerability. We have to know our client. We have to know our product. Those standards have to be applied across our companies at various levels by persons who are individually registered with the securities administrators.

To wrap that all up, when you think of the traditional categories of traditional securities players, a restricted dealer is one of those categories, and we need to fit into that traditional box with some modifications for crypto assets specifically.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you.

Traditional lending institutions have to comply with Basel III and all the banking regulations around that internationally in terms of the capital that they have to keep on their balance sheet and what they're allowed to lend.

When an exchange receives payment for the purchase of a token, are there any restrictions or requirements on how much of that cash should be kept within an exchange's balance sheet and on what it is or is not allowed to do with the remaining money?

11:30 a.m.

General Counsel and Chief Legal Officer, WonderFi Technologies Inc.

Adam Garetson

Definitely.

As I was saying slightly earlier, we are not allowed to offer margin or lending, and as an extension, we are not permitted to participate in fractional reserve banking from the traditional perspective. We hold all client assets one-to-one, and we put out proof-of-reserve audits to show our users where the assets actually are.

Related to that under the modified crypto rules that layer onto the more traditional securities requirements, we are required to hold 80% of client assets in what's referred to as “cold storage”. This is industry term of art. Essentially, a great way to think about it, from my perspective, is that a traditional commodity like gold will sit in a vault somewhere, and when gold is traded, it doesn't move in and out of the vault. You're trading contracts for the actual ownership, but in reality, it stays in storage.

What does that mean for the crypto industry? Well, the security regulators require platforms like ours to hold 80%-plus of our client assets in the vault, in cold storage, at all times, and only take them out if we're going to be moving them around. In practice, what that means for trading platforms like ours is that 95%-plus of our assets typically remain in cold storage, with only a small portion of that—3% to 5%—coming out to do daily transactions.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Garetson.

We'll now move to Mr. Dong for six minutes.

November 21st, 2022 / 11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses, as well, for coming today and giving us a very informative look at the blockchain cryptocurrency situation here in Canada.

My first couple of questions are for Mr. Hyman and Mr. Mosoff.

To your knowledge, what industry right now uses blockchain technology?

I'll start with Mr. Hyman.

11:35 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

We're seeing widespread use of blockchain technology across a wide range of industries, with financial services probably being the largest retail consumer of crypto and blockchains at the moment.

However, as I mentioned previously, the World Food Programme has incorporated blockchain technology. So have many other social-good initiatives and governmental initiatives all around the world. Where we're going to see the largest adoption in the next 10 years, and what Canada needs to be prepared for, is starting to think of these Internet organizations or companies, as we refer to them today, as distributed co-owned pieces of software that live on the Internet. Therefore, the future of this space is way beyond industry effect. It's in how we view the fundamental technologies that make up the Internet.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Okay.

11:35 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

The future of this space is really in enabling individuals to create these autonomous organizations through a series of smart contracts that enable functionality way beyond trading crypto, and that's the world we need to be prepared for, because, quite frankly, it's already here.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

You mentioned enabling individuals to adapt to this model. What kind of regulation do you think is required from the Government of Canada to make sure...? Because we're dealing with individuals or corporations in a virtual space, trading potentially large sums of commodities in the case of food, as you just mentioned, what types of regulations do you think the government should be looking at?

11:35 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

As a few of my colleagues have mentioned, we do have pretty robust regulations in place right now to ensure that for-the-use cases that are being seen day to day are above board.

Where we really need to work together is to start to define what that looks like for this next wave of applications that are going to start to take over the world. Just as when Facebook and all of these large networks launched, we have to re-evaluate how they affect society and how we need to work together to ensure that they don't negatively affect regular people.

We also need to come together to start to understand what the individual implication is and also what the corporate implication of these different things is.

We are a company registered in Canada—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Thank you. I want to give Mr. Mosoff a bit of time too.

Perhaps you can continue on from that point. To your knowledge, is there in Canada a structured policy framework that is looking at these regulations and at what's required in the future?

11:35 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Brian Mosoff

If I can take a step back, I think it's important to recognize that a lot of the activity that has taken place so far inside of these ecosystems has largely been what I call “digitally native”, or blockchain native tech. It's kind of this self-referential loop rather than touching real-world businesses that are out in the “meatspace”, as people in tech would call it.

Where we're crossing into now is this point where companies like Visa are recognizing that tokenizing U.S. dollars perhaps is a faster form of settlement than using the SWIFT network for wires or different ways of clearing cheques. We're at this point that I mentioned before, at the spectrum of activities where you have NFTs and DeFi and on-chain trading happening over here, but now you're seeing banks and financial institutions asking if they should be tokenizing equities, bonds and securities and using this also as a form of settlement.

I don't think it's clear yet how these two worlds are going to collide, but it feels as though in the next two to three years we're going to start seeing all of this activity happening on something like Ethereum.

I also would point out that it's important...because I get this question a fair amount: What are the real-world business cases? Even though it's not quite clear exactly how the technology will be used today, I liken it to the early Internet, when people were looking at how the post office was maybe going to offer electronic mail for people to come into a local service centre and send something to someone in a different jurisdiction, and that would validate the technology of the Internet, when in fact the biggest businesses turned out to be a library in something like Google, which didn't have that much value in terms of monetary value prior to the Internet. It was the same with Amazon, Facebook and social networking. It's really hard to imagine what the biggest businesses will be in this new world. There are probably things that are more digitally native or blockchain-native than something that we can mirror back to society today.

In terms of regulation, I think where we're at now is that we have done very well with structured products. As I mentioned, we have a few listed entities joining us today. I'm one of them. We have ETFs that we brought to market. But retail investors may want a different access point. For people who are comfortable with the technology and who want to hold the asset direct inside of a centralized entity, in a crypto trading platform or a self-hosted wallet, they are going to look for a way to purchase that asset.

I think the next thing we need to do is figure out how we give enough clarity to the local platforms—

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Mr. Mosoff, I hate to cut you off. This is very interesting, but I want to ask you one other very quick question.

We did a study on quantum technology. Some would argue that it will be commercialized within five to 10 years. What kind of impact will it have on cryptocurrency or on blockchain technology if it does in fact arrive?

11:40 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Brian Mosoff

I will give a short answer and then ask Mr. Hyman to chime in.

As far as I know, if quantum is able to break blockchain technology, it would force the space to move to new algorithms that would be quantum-resistant. Some of that research has already begun. More worrisome would be that the entire Internet security would be broken today. Every banking system, every access layer and set of controls for pretty much every system that the government has and that users have would also be broken.

It's a scary world to imagine, but it's something that is important to consider.

Mr. Hyman, I don't know if you want to add anything to that.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

What should legislators do?