Evidence of meeting #45 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ethereum.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Aidan Hyman  Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.
Brian Mosoff  Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital
Evan Thomas  Head of Legal, Wealthsimple Crypto, Wealthsimple
Adam Garetson  General Counsel and Chief Legal Officer, WonderFi Technologies Inc.

12:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

I'll make sure that my team shares some data around energy consumption, specifically the move to proof of stake and what that's meant for energy consumption and blockchain networks because, with proof of stake, we are now able to say that we are using less energy than traditional financial services. I'll make sure to share some of those reports with the committee.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you very much.

I believe I've run out of speaking time.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

That's correct. Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

I'm giving the floor now to Mr. Masse.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have no further questions, so if Mr. Trudel or anyone else wants some time, it's good.

It has been a very interesting discussion. There's lots to take in.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

We will move to Mr. Lobb for five minutes, please.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thanks very much.

It's great to see such a fantastic panel here today.

My first question is for Aidan or Brian.

I have spent a fair bit of time looking at this. I'm no expert—that's for sure—but I can think of one basic application.

I've known Brian Masse for years. We're good pals and our office is on the same floor. With regard to practical purposes, as we sit here in Canada, we are some of the luckiest people in the world. We don't have to worry about a lot, but there are people around the world who don't even have bank accounts. I think it's two billion people around the world who don't even have the ability to get a bank account.

Brian or Aidan, could you comment on the ability that this might give over the next number of years for people who are unbanked to have a bank and transact? Could you provide some comments on that?

12:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Brian Mosoff

I would start by saying that the technology and ability to access this global financial layer is very important.

What we're watching right now is a bifurcation in our traditional financial system. We're seeing countries being cut off. We're seeing people's bank accounts being shut off. We're seeing businesses not able to get bank accounts as anti-money laundering and “know your customer” rules continue to ramp up. Some of them are for very good cause and are important, but it's becoming more difficult to perform a lot of economic activity.

The question is going to be, who has the right to approve that economic activity? Who has the right to give people a bank account? For the people who are outside of that system and who have been traditionally left behind, where is their access going to be?

There is a fundamental question for Canada: Do we have a responsibility to people in other jurisdictions in the world to help them be part of financial inclusion?

I suppose you could argue this either way, but the reason I'm so excited about Ethereum, Bitcoin or any of these layers is that as the world bifurcates further and countries get cut off from our economic activity, people are going to move toward something that is more open and inclusive than what we have.

I think a lot of the potential here is to give access to those people who are outside of the system. I think we're still a ways away. The cost to transact on many of the big networks like Bitcoin and Ethereum may still price out people in developing countries, but it will get there over time.

12:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

One thing we can speak to as well is the development in wallet technologies and specifically self-custody wallet technology.

If we were having this conversation five years ago, the idea of having two billion people leveraging blockchain technology for their financial inclusion would be a complicated and complex thing to discuss. What we have seen over these last, say, five to 10 years is a huge influx of these self-custody wallets that leverage some really exciting cryptographic primitives to ensure that people do have the ability to recover while still having full self-custody.

The technology is now at a place that it has never been before to enable those two billion people, as you mentioned, to be included in this new world.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

I wish I had a lot more time for questions here.

I think about one other real and practical application. We may gripe from time to time about our Canadian dollar and how is against the pound, the American dollar or what have you, but it's fairly stable.

Countries like Lebanon, Turkey, Argentina and other countries have seen their currency crater against the U.S. dollar, and their wealth, in a global perspective, has been wiped out. I also think about the French African colonies that work off the French franc, the 14 countries there. Nigeria is another one I can think of. This gives them an opportunity to own a digital currency that protects some of their wealth.

Do you guys have any comments on that?

12:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Brian Mosoff

I would agree with that, even though bitcoin seems extremely volatile, and it is volatile. It has been since its inception.

The question is this: Do people have a fundamental right to opt out of a monetary policy in their local jurisdiction? It's not something on which I can say “One hundred per cent, everyone should agree, yes,” or “One hundred per cent, everyone should agree, no.”

The fact is that it's is what these technologies enable. If someone was living in Argentina and holding the Argentinian peso when it was one to one to the U.S. dollar, and the government then converted their U.S. dollars into pesos and they had a worse rate than the bank a number of years later, and now.... I haven't looked at the rate recently, but it was something like 90 pesos to one U.S. dollar. Citizens in that jurisdiction would 100% benefit from being able to hold bitcoin or a tokenized version of a U.S. dollar or a Canadian dollar. That's where I see the opportunity.

As I mentioned earlier, when we're thinking about CBDCs or the digitization of the Canadian dollar, is there an opportunity to leverage into this technology and to lean into it in a compliant way that is very collaborative with industry, and recognize that people are going to want to hold other national currencies in a way that they maybe haven't had access to before?

As much as the U.S. may complain that the tokenized U.S. dollar and the stablecoins have been issued without oversight or in a compliant way, the reality is that U.S. dollars have become the default “quote currency” in many of these decentralized finance applications. Hundreds of billions of dollars are now sitting in tokenized U.S. dollars. I think the U.S. can lean into that and try to encourage more countries to want to adopt their currency.

There's also an opportunity for Canada to figure out how we push our currency into this technology, help other countries and strengthen the long-term ability of the Canadian dollar to remain relevant.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Do I have time for a quick question?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Yes.

12:20 p.m.

Bloc

Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

On the currency, it's not to replace but maybe to protect some of your wealth through a U.S. dollar coin or something.

The last question I would ask is this. We're studying moon shots in our science and technology committee. Brian, you see a number of proposals come across your desk through Ether Capital.

What are some amazing projects out there that could be complete game-changers for the world?

12:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Brian Mosoff

I admittedly don't know what a moon shot is. I'm not sure if that's an application or an NFT. However, the technology today that is really exciting is figuring out how you scale up these networks to allow transactions to take place at a fraction of a penny, and what type of economic activity can happen if that becomes a reality in a secure way.

I can't speak to other blockchains. Helium was mentioned before. I'm not sure what that is at a tech level. However, I think that scalability and having the right to transfer something at a fraction of a penny anywhere instantaneously is very important. At the same time, I think that a lot of proposals are going to be developed in the coming years for financial institutions to figure out how they can leverage this technology and these open layers to digitize some of their current activities or use it for a faster or more efficient settlement, while respecting that they are going to need privacy.

Zero-knowledge proofs are something that speak to whether you can transact in a way that a bank does not expose what that activity is to the open public. Can you transact in a way so that people can't see what it is, but can prove, verifiably, that they have a certain set of reserves and that a certain trade took place? That is developing very much in the background, and it will be a big part of the next few years. It's scalability and financial institutions leveraging the technology in a way that benefits their existing systems.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much.

12:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, President of Canadian Web3 Council, Ether Capital

Brian Mosoff

I'm sorry I don't know what moon shots are.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

We might have some more time toward the end, but I'll go now to Madame Lapointe for five minutes.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to share my speaking time with my colleague Mr. Peter Fragiskatos.

My question is for Mr. Hyman. I would like to shift away from cryptocurrency and explore other uses for blockchain technology.

In your opening statement, you mentioned how blockchain technology can be a model for change, and you cited an example where a world food chain was created. I have heard the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, Minister Champagne say that when he meets with world leaders, food security is one of their top concerns.

You've touched on it a few times now, but can you explain to us how blockchain technology can be used in fostering food security globally?

12:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

Absolutely.

Looking at how we utilize centralized databases right now to ensure accountability for things like food supplies, it's unfortunately in a position where anyone in a position of power can influence those numbers. At the same time, we don't have assurances that when capital is sent, wherever it is sent across the world, it is used specifically for the things we demand it be used for.

With blockchain technology comes an auditability to know exactly what information lies where and who is able to manipulate that information, obviously not always in a negative way. With that comes, again, the ability to audit the financial trail as well, in such a way that any person can see for themselves exactly where each dollar is going.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

When we look at peer countries like the U.K. and Australia, where the governments have developed policies and strategies around blockchain technology, would you suggest that there are some good lessons to be learned there for Canada?

12:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Chainsafe Systems Inc.

Aidan Hyman

I would say the greatest opportunity right now is to stand out. It is to do so much more than anyone around us. So many people are waiting for someone to take the lead.

As has been mentioned, we've seen some incredible adjacent legislation in Estonia with their online IDs for their e-Residency program. That really blew everyone away. Seeing something like that on such a global scale was never really considered.

I would actually say that the opportunity here is to stand out beyond our peer nations and to be that hotbed for incredible moon shot innovation that can come by fostering local initiatives to be based in Canada and to not leave.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you to my colleague.

It's great to be sitting in on the committee today as a replacement for one of my colleagues. It's a very interesting discussion.

This question relates to risk exposure. I'm not sure who wants to take it.

Do we have data on the number of Canadians who have crypto assets—not ones that would be regulated in Canada, but abroad? Is there any information on that?

12:30 p.m.

Head of Legal, Wealthsimple Crypto, Wealthsimple

Evan Thomas

I can assist the committee with that.

I believe your question is getting at the number of Canadians who hold crypto assets. Do you mean with foreign platforms?

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

That's correct, and therefore they are regulated in different countries.