Evidence of meeting #57 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Western University, As an Individual
I would say that biomedical engineers are highly trained experts in their field. Being highly skilled, they can do critical work with high quality.
I'm sorry. Can you repeat your question?
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
If this law passes, do you see an increased risk in maintaining the precision of medical equipment?
6:20 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Western University, As an Individual
The only risk that would be likely to increase would be if this bill is not passed or if the medical equipment sector is exempt from this bill. The reason is that, similar to the farming or agriculture industry, timeliness is of critical importance in the delivery of health care. When physicians, nurses and other health care workers don't have access to working equipment, they can't provide patients with the care they need in a timely fashion, and that really risks the health of patients.
6:20 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think Mr. Fogolin's audio is working again, so I'm going to try asking him a question.
How much does your industry work to limit electronic waste from game consoles? The equipment has a short window before it's outdated and another console comes along.
6:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Policy and Government Affairs, Entertainment Software Association of Canada
I will try to speak as slowly as possible to allow for translation.
As I mentioned earlier, the game console industry and the gaming industry have a different approach to devices and how we make our consoles, and they are manufactured to be as durable as possible. If you go on eBay and search for older game consoles, you'll see a robust market for consoles from my childhood in the 1990s.
During the Christmas holiday, I did some housecleaning, and I found my old Super Nintendo. I got the right cable to connect it to an HDTV, and it worked. I'm not saying everything would work, but they are built to be durable.
Our members want to create a positive experience and create players who love their games, keep buying new consoles when they come out and try new experiences. For that reason, it's a bit of a differentiator. These are very durable products.
On top of that, if you want to get rid of an older console, you can send it to the manufacturer, and they have robust recycling programs. GameStop is one of the large retailers, and they do the same thing.
The final thing I'll mention is that there are some—and I believe Dr. Rosborough may have mentioned this earlier—voluntary agreements when it comes to things like environmental stewardship in the EU. I know that our three major console members have signed on to an SRI when it comes to building in a sustainable fashion, energy efficiency and full life cycle. I'm not sure if there's an equivalent here in Canada, but those are the sorts of things we do.
6:20 p.m.
Bloc
Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île dOrléans—Charlevoix, QC
Let's say I have a PlayStation 4, and then PlayStation 5 comes out. Does the exclusion you proposed not require you to supply parts so the PlayStation 4 can be repaired?
6:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Policy and Government Affairs, Entertainment Software Association of Canada
That's a good question. Again, our industry is somewhat unique in this regard. Even when a console is discontinued and is no longer for sale, the parts will be available. I'm not saying they will be in perpetuity, but again, our three major console makers.... There are still people playing PlayStations 1 and 2.
Furthermore, to my earlier point about the ease of repairability in general, most of the issues you might have playing an older console you can fix on your own. There's a tri-wedge screw, something you could use to deal with most of these electronic repairs, and that's something you can do. Again, it's in our members' best interests to make sure that consoles work for as long as possible and that manufacturers retain some of the parts needed to repair these consoles for many years after they discontinue selling them.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Fogolin and Mrs. Desbiens.
Over to you, Mr. Masse, for two and a half minutes.
6:20 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Centivany, did you do any work with the medical sector with regard to ventilators during COVID, with which we still obviously have issues? There were a number of stories of doctors changing some of the ventilators to adapt them to be more productive on patients. Do you have any information on that? Can you provide that to the committee?
I'm aware of a few cases that came out through the media, but I'm just wondering if you have had experience with that as well.
6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Western University, As an Individual
I don't have any experience with that in the Canadian context. It's certainly something that's come up in a global context, not just with the ventilator parts but with other basic, foundational medical equipment, like the tubing on a stethoscope. Just being able to replace those can be very difficult and was very difficult, prohibitively so, during the COVID epidemic, when supply chains were so disrupted.
6:25 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I guess there are departures from the use of the device in the medical field. There's a very robust process to do that. You just can't be a doctor and do that on your own. You have to follow a full ethical process, from what I understand, that takes place when there are adaptations or potential uses of medical devices in a way different from what they were originally purposed for.
6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Western University, As an Individual
That's exactly right. There are thorough standards and ethical guidelines that apply to the health care sector.
6:25 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
To conclude here, I guess my point with that is, if we don't have any type of flexibility in these standards, we would open ourselves up to more lawsuits. Innovations and changes can help the manufacturer in many respects. That goes to relationships and trust, because those types of innovations come back from users, which we sometimes forget, and the more robust companies adopt that as part of their practices, whereas others go to more of a restrictive practice that is not as progressive, in my opinion anyway.
6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Western University, As an Individual
I'd like to just add one point to that, if that's okay.
With respect to the ventilator valves, I mentioned earlier in my comments the instance in Italian hospitals where volunteers essentially 3D printed replacement valves for the ventilators. Because of the threat of lawsuits based on intellectual property law, the sharing of that information so that people in other jurisdictions could also 3D print replacement valves was blocked.
It's exactly right that those innovations were pre-empted in unfortunate ways.
6:25 p.m.
NDP
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you very much.
Mr. Patzer, we'll finish where we started, with your questions.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you very much. I want to touch on a point that has come up in many of the briefings sent to the committee. A few of the witnesses have touched on it.
Because of how technical the conversation is around technological protection measures—even the implementation of the Copyright Act—there seems to be this general misunderstanding about what the act does, what it would mean and how it's interpreted.
When I read the bill and when I read other bills similar to it, there's a lot of very specific language in it. This one in particular says, “circumvention is solely for the purpose of the diagnosis, maintenance or repair of a product”.
I guess this question is for Mr. Rosborough and Ms. Centivany.
In law, how important is it that we have very specific language around what the intent is with these bills?
6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Western University, As an Individual
It's really important. This bill actually does a great job of being specific. It's very clear that the exemption applies to three sorts of behaviours, which are diagnosing, maintenance and repair, as you said.
I would also say that it helps us distinguish between the kinds of activities that we want to promote here—repair—which extend the longevity and useful life of goods, keep them out of landfills and support local economies in terms of having third party repair technicians have ample work.
However, it doesn't include things like environmental controls and emissions. It doesn't include things like parts of the system that might affect cybersecurity. It doesn't include things that might affect consumer safety or modification.
I think that the clarity of language is essential. It's very clear here that the types of activities that are being permitted are really related to repair.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you.
Ms. Rosborough, do you have anything you want to add to that or does that sum it up?
6:30 p.m.
Researcher, Department of Law, European University Institute, As an Individual
When we're talking about the potential for other activities outside of repair, diagnosis and maintenance to be colourable or under the auspices of repair, the more relevant question to ask is whether the default is to allow TPMs to be used in a way that is under the auspices of copyright, but that has nothing to do with copyright.
I think we need to flip the definitional question around and ask to what extent TPM implementations are actually connected to the exercise of copyright.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you very much.
I have a question for Mr. Bernard. I did a tour of an auto body shop back home in my riding. One thing they were talking about in terms of why the right to repair is an important thing to them was completing the repair of a vehicle after it's been in an accident. They're trying to return the vehicle to its original state. They're not trying to modify it. They're not trying to make it greater than or less than it was. They are trying to get it as close to the exact state it was in before it was in the accident.
A barrier for them is access to certain datasets from certain manufacturers, although certainly not all of them. The issue still exists that they cannot complete their repair, which then has an impact on insurance and on who's liable if an owner drives that vehicle off the parking lot and something fails on the vehicle. It's going to fall back on the auto body shop, but it's not technically their fault, because they couldn't get the information.
I'm just wondering what you would have to say in regard to that.
6:30 p.m.
Lead Economist, Canadian Automobile Dealers Association
I'll try to answer in English.
It's interesting, because it can quickly become, especially in the case you mentioned, a specific case where it highlights a bit more of the complexity of where it can go.
Like I mentioned in terms of overall access to repair, the auto industry has been pretty good. People have been able to repair their cars either on the aftermarket or through the dealerships. I think the situation you mentioned can quickly become a situation of cat and mouse. If we're to bring back a vehicle to its original state, I'm pretty sure there's strong interest from the manufacturer to make sure that the repaired vehicle meets, once again, all the specific criteria and regulations that have been implemented in the car, through not only the manufacturer but also the dealership's extensive approval and qualification process.
Your question is fully legitimate, and I think CASIS.... Once again, I don't want to repeat myself, but I think it's a perfect environment in which to have these discussions.
However, the question you asked can come from both ways. When you have a vehicle that is basically being brought back to life, should we be a bit more prudent? I think that would be the standpoint of manufacturers. I don't want to speak on their behalf, but I know dealers go through an extensive process with techniques and tools to make sure the vehicle meets those criteria. Another question is more about liability, like you said, enforcing and making sure that the new vehicle meets those criteria. It's a complex issue.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
That's about it, Mr. Patzer, unless you have a very short question.