Evidence of meeting #69 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Vincent  Assistant Deputy Minister, Small Business and Marketplace Services, Department of Industry
James Burns  Senior Director, Investment Review Branch, Department of Industry

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Ladies and gentlemen, dear colleagues, good afternoon.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, April 17, 2023, we are studying Bill C‑34, An Act to amend the Investment Canada Act.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of Thursday, June 23, 2022.

For the first hour, we are fortunate to have with us the Hon. François-Philippe Champagne, the member for Saint-Maurice—Champlain and Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry. He is accompanied by Charles Vincent, Assistant Deputy Minister, Small Business and Marketplace Services. In the second hour, Mr Vincent will be joined by James Burns, Senior Director, Investment Review Branch.

I'm going to begin by giving the floor to Mr. Champagne for a rather generous period of five minutes.

April 26th, 2023 / 4:30 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Innovation

Thank you for your generosity, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to acknowledge the work done by our colleague Brian Masse.

I would like to congratulate him on the passing at third reading of the Ojibway national urban park act. I think it's a huge achievement by a colleague. We should all be proud that a private member's bill gets that recognition. It's all thanks to him. I wanted to say that on the record, even though I know most of his questions might not be about the Ojibway national park today.

I also want to thank Andy Fillmore, my parliamentary secretary, for all his work, and thank you for the work of all members of the committee.

Dear colleagues, I'm very pleased to see you, and even more so for this opportunity to speak to you about Bill C‑34, An Act to amend the Investment Canada Act.

Our colleagues, as well as businesses and various other stakeholders, have shown a great deal of interest in the modernization of this act. The last time it was revised was 2009. I believe my colleagues would agree with me that the world has greatly changed since then.

As you know, the Investment Canada Act performs an important role in Canada's economy. Its primary role is to encourage economic growth, and it intervenes only in instances where an investment would be harmful to Canada's national security.

The purpose of modernizing the act is to strengthen our capacity to protect Canada's national security and intellectual property. It would also improve transparency for investors and give them certainty, while strengthening our capacity to take rapid and firm action to reduce national security risks.

I welcome the comments made by the many members of the House who came to see me in person. Quite a few of my colleagues rightly underscored the fact that national security was not and ought never to be, a partisan issue. We are all united in our desire to protect the interests of Canadians.

Before continuing, I'd like to clarify something about which there appears to be some confusion—the trigger thresholds.

Bill C‑34 mainly addresses the Canada Investment Act's national security review, not the net benefit reviews.

Net benefit reviews are triggered by a number of financial thresholds. These thresholds are of course published and updated every year. The amounts vary, depending on whether the investor is a state-owned or state-controlled enterprise, a member country of the World Trade Organization, or country with which Canada has a trade treaty.

On the other hand, there is no triggering financial threshold for a national security review. Allow me to repeat: there is no triggering financial threshold. All investments, irrespective of value, are subject to the national security review, with no exceptions.

In this context, I want to take a few minutes to discuss three themes that I think came up through debate and that would be relevant for colleagues around this table.

First is the ability to protect Canada's interests. One thing I was pleased to hear was the agreement around ensuring the government has the right tools to protect Canada's interests. Today, it's all about the tool box. There's a lot of ambition, I would say, around this table, but I think they would find that the Minister of Industry today has a very limited tool box to address the security threats we're facing.

The amendments we're proposing to the ICA will strengthen our ability to respond to the evolving threat environment and, I would say, to the geopolitical situation we're facing today. Things like undertakings will make sure that we are more nimble and allow companies to make binding commitments to mitigate any national security concerns that are associated with proposed investments.

Previously, imposing conditions on a transaction to mitigate risk could occur only through a Governor in Council order. These GIC orders typically cannot be amended. Allowing undertakings at the ministerial level means these conditions could be imposed and amended, giving us greater flexibility to adapt to the conditions in order to protect our national security.

Colleagues, we have seen that in a cyberworld and a world where we've seen more people interested in IP and our critical resources, we need to be nimble to be able to answer the threat. This bill will allow us to make the review process more efficient by providing the Minister of Industry, in consultation with the Minister of Public Safety, with the authority to order further reviews, rather than seeking an order in council from cabinet. This is about doing business at the speed of business.

Removing the step of getting an order from cabinet at this specific stage will give more time to our security and intelligence partners to complete a thorough assessment of the national security risk. We should all be happy about that, because we want to have the best intelligence for any minister to make a decision.

However, I want to emphasize that cabinet will still remain the authority to make the decision on any final order related to blocking an investment. That authority to make a final order is not changing, but we need to accelerate the process before the final step, to move at the speed of business.

The second thing I've heard about from colleagues, Mr. Chair, is protecting IP and intangible assets. We all know that companies now sit on a lot of intangible assets, and we need to make sure we protect that. Another thing we heard about was the importance of protecting, like I said, intellectual property and intangible assets that Canadian companies own.

Our government recognizes the value of the intangible economy as it's growing, and the relevant opportunities for all Canadians. This bill will help protect the intangible assets of Canadian business through the introduction of a new pre-implementation filing requirement and a new authority for the Minister of Industry to impose interim conditions on an investment, so it's about pre-filing requirements and also having interim conditions during the period that you're going to review that.

Colleagues will understand that's what matters, because before you give a final approval or not, you want to make sure that companies will not be disclosing IP to the other side. That way, the government can ensure that such harm does not occur. I think this is something that the committee has been asking for. Believe it or not, today, the Minister of Industry doesn't have the authority to impose interim conditions, meaning that you freeze the situation for the time of the review. We know that, with intangible assets, it's not something that you can give back. Once people have had access, they have the knowledge. We need to prevent that.

The new authority will impose conditions and will prevent the transfer of Canadian intellectual property, trade secrets and technical know-how to non-Canadian entities prior to the conclusion of the national security review. The ICA already allows us to take a look at asset sales. We will now have the tools to manage those cases much more efficiently and, I would say, in the interest of Canadians.

The third thing I've heard from colleagues is around transparency.

The bill adds certainty and transparency for enterprises and investors by specifying the improvements we are going to make to the national security review process.

There will also be robust protection of any information supplied to my department, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, in connection with both national security and net benefit reviews.

Such protection is required to protect the bond of trust between the department, potential investors and Canadian enterprises involved in a transaction. For that reason, we will never publicly disclose such information, or specific circumstances, involved in current or past reviews. Although there are restrictions on what can be disclosed, we have already been publishing our decisions and directives to clarify how the Investment Canada Act is being applied.

Bill C‑34 also adds new provisions for the protection of information In the judicial review of decisions. This amendment will enable the government to defend its national security decisions on the basis of sensitive information, while protecting such information from disclosure. These new provisions will also enable applicants to participate more fully in judicial proceedings.

To conclude, I'd like to thank the committee for the work it has done over the past few years, including its studies on the Investment Canada Act. Colleagues around this table have all contributed to the outcome we are presenting today. We took your comments and the recommendations of our colleagues into consideration, and they are reflected in Bill C‑34.

I would even go so far as to say that action is urgently needed, because colleagues on both sides of the House frequently asked me to intervene. I explained to them how the shortage of tools in our tool box was impeding our capacity to do a better job of defending Canadian interests.

We also gave consideration to recommendations made with respect to other recently announced policies, such as those pertaining to the protection of critical minerals. As you may have noticed, I've already announced four policies that will provide better protection for Canadian interests.

I am enthusiastically looking forward to further work with you on this bill. As I mentioned previously, I acknowledge that we all agree on the fact that Canada's national security is not a partisan matter and that we need to be united in our determination to work together for Canada's protection.

I'd like to thank the committee for its excellent work.

I will of, course, be happy to answer any questions that members of the committee may have in order to achieve the best possible results on behalf of Canadians.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Champagne.

To get the discussion started, I'm giving the floor to Mr. Williams for six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee again, Minister. It's always nice to see you.

Before we get into the important business, while we have you on the record and in the name of the third point you talked about, transparency, you mentioned last week a study done for Volkswagen that showed a return on investment in five years for Canadians.

Do you mind submitting that to the committee?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I would suggest the committee talk to the Trillium Network. That's the independent advisory group that has been doing the study. It's also based on what we have seen with Volkswagen in Valencia, Spain. There is a body of articles about these gigafactories. We were the first one to land the first—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

I want to get to some questions on Bill C-34.

If you have a study, can you submit it?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

It's a study by the Trillium Network. I would suggest that the committee ask the Trillium Network to provide what they have been saying publicly.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Okay.

Minister, these are three great points for the committee to debate. I think that's great.

We really want to talk about the creation of a list of industries that are going to be subject to a national security review. Some of the industries that we believe should be on the list are health care, agricultural innovation, intellectual property, natural resources and manufacturing.

Do you have a list right now that you're going to submit?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Thank you. That's a very important question.

We decided that the list would be in the regulations, because it's an evolving situation. I think colleagues can have confidence in what we have already published in the four policies about critical minerals, sensitive technology, artificial intelligence, quantum computing and cyber-technology.

If colleagues look at the body of policies, the four that were published in 2021 and 2022—three of them in 2022—you see a body of sectors that we have already said are sensitive. I think those are the ones that are going to be reflected in the regulations. The reason it would not be advisable to put that in the legislation is that we want to add sectors as things evolve. The last time we amended the law was in 2009, so we don't want to preclude adding sectors that will become critical to protecting our national security.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Okay. Thank you.

At least 12 Canadian universities are still partnering with Huawei after you issued a ban and are using government funding to send Canadian-developed IP to Communist China. Why does the tri-council continue to fund Huawei after you have banned them?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I have been very clear about my own view. We published the national security guidelines for research partnerships. We now have a research security centre, but I've also put out a research security statement.

I would say that in the public domain we saw some universities partnering with some military institutes. I think Canadians were shocked, in a way, to learn that. That is why immediately thereafter I issued a statement to make sure that we would have even more stringent goals to prevent public funding from the tri-council going to research that would involve anything that would be with military institutes of countries that would be adverse to Canadian interests.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Is there anything else that you think you should be doing to stop this or is it just that...?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

It's an evolving field, to be honest, sir. I am always watching what other G7 partners are doing—the Five Eyes. I would think that now we are probably at the forefront. Colleagues in other countries are asking me and saying, “Okay, Minister, what else...?”

We're kind of looking at that, but you know, like I do, sir, because you are very well versed, it's an evolving threat situation. You just have to be mindful. On the one hand, you want to preserve research independence, which I think is fundamental, but at the same time, with the tri-council, we've been working hard with universities. We are meeting next week with the U15 and I will make sure to restate the point.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I will cede my remaining time to Mr. McLean.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Welcome, Minister.

You had some good comments here about the relationship with your department, ISED, and the necessity of international investment in Canada. Given the last eight years, that's a consistent failure with your government. We are down to 90% of the capital stock in Canada that we had before your government came to power. Clearly, international investment is not coming into Canada because of the uncertainty created by your government.

Can you please square this for us very quickly? Right now, the only investment that is coming into Canada at all sectors of the value chain is government investment, including sometimes at twice the amount that would be needed to build a plant like the one built in St. Thomas for Volkswagen.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

How many hours, Mr. Chair, do I have to answer that? There's Nokia, Ericsson and the list goes on. GM, POSCO, LG, Stellantis, Volkswagen...if I had an hour, I could list for you everyone who is calling me. Everyone wants to invest in Canada. I would say, sir—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Pardon me, Minister—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Hold on, sir. You asked me the question. I'll give you an answer.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

I did ask you a question. You gave me an answer, but I'm also going to say that every one of these is based on millions of dollars' worth—tens of millions, sometimes $14 billion—of government investment. That is not an economy. That is taxpayers' money being used to subsidize everything you are doing at every step of the value chain.

That's not exactly a business plan for Canada going forward. How are you going to attract actual international investment that isn't based upon pure government subsidy?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Well, sir, I'm not going to take lessons from a party that let down the good people of St. Thomas and let 8,000 jobs go.

If my colleagues want to look at what the world is doing right now, Canada is winning, and we're winning—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Are we talking about $14 billion for 2,000 jobs? How many jobs are we actually subsidizing here?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

It's 30,000 jobs—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Greg McLean Conservative Calgary Centre, AB

Thirty thousand is a make-believe number.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

This is going to be the largest single plant in Canada's history.

Actually, Mr. Chair, just for the record, there is nothing about $14 billion. First of all, the company needs to build a plant of $7 billion, and if and whenever they build and sell one battery, subject to the IRA, retroactively, over 10 years, there might be a production support. That's the reality of this deal.

I'd be really happy to come and explain to everyone in this room why this is the best deal for Canada, with a payback of five years for a company that will be there for a hundred years. I can tell you, sir, because I've been involved from day one: Every jurisdiction in the world would want that plant, because that's going to be the largest Volkswagen plant in the world to produce batteries.

I have ambition for Canada. This is about possibilities and ambition. You don't need to look far, sir. Just look south of the border. Just look at what our friends are doing in the United States. I believe we need to be there to support industry and to support our workers. That's what I did.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. McLean.

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Lapointe now has the floor for six minutes.