Evidence of meeting #17 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cuban.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nelson Taylor Sol  Director, Ottawa Delegation, Cuban Canadian Foundation
Asdrubal Caner Camejo  Social Democrat Party of Cuba
Ronald Silvester  Interpreter, As an Individual
Philippe Leroux  Cuba-Nouvelles
Colette Lavergne  Table de concertation de solidarité Québec-Cuba
Sean O'Donoghue  Caravane d'amitié Québec-Cuba
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Bibiane Ouellette
Marcus Pistor  Committee Researcher

Noon

Bloc

Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My questions will be along the same line as those of my colleague. I do not know whether other committee members will agree, but I must say I feel somewhat uncomfortable. We want to study human rights in Cuba, and there are two fairly contradictory positions on this. I do not intend to judge one more than the other. I would just like you to help us in our work.

We hear that there is some mistreatment of prisoners and so on. We note that, but we hear another version which is that everything seems to be just fine in Cuba. I confess that I would be pleased if that were the case, but it does not seem to be true.

What are you suggesting to committee members? What should we be recommending to the Government of Canada? Does Canada's policy on Cuba deserve special attention, and if so, in what areas? Should we go so far as to call for the lifting of the trade embargo?

At the same time, there seem to be some good things with the United States. I confess that I feel uncomfortable, because the positions are so contradictory. However, no one has made any concrete suggestions about what we should be doing.

I would like you to clarify things for committee members.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Would you like Mr. Leroux to answer your question first?

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

All witnesses may reply.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

One of you direct who goes first.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

I will wait, because I need someone to shed some light on this for us.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Mr. Leroux will answer, and then Mr. Taylor Sol will have his turn. Is that all right?

12:05 p.m.

Cuba-Nouvelles

Philippe Leroux

I understand you very well, Ms. St-Hilaire.

When I first went to Cuba in the year 2000, I asked more or less the same questions. When I read the newspapers, I wondered whether it was heaven or hell. This is why I have spent nearly 25% of my time in Cuba over the past seven years. I have lived with the Cuban people, both in Havana and in the other provinces, to find out what was going on inside Cuba at all levels.

I noted that all was not well in Cuba. The country has been economically stifled for 48 years. No other country has ever gone through that. Can you imagine what would happen if, tomorrow morning, the United States refused any trade with Canada and threatened to prosecute any company that trades with Canada? We would be in desperate economic straights. Canada is a wealthy country, whereas Cuba, at the time of the revolution, was a poor country.

Thus, things are not going well. When the Soviet Union, that had been helping Cuba economically, fell apart, the blockade was re-enforced. Let me remind you that you asked me whether we should condemn the blockade. The Canadian government condemns it as almost every country in the world does. Only four UN member-countries support the blockade. Of course, the United States support it, along with Israel, Palaos and the Marshall Islands. The rest of the international community is revolted by this illegal blockade that is often described as attempted genocide.

This is Cuba's real economic situation. Canada and Canadian companies are welcomed to trade with Cuba, for without this, Cubans would be literally starving to death, as was the case in the beginning of what is called the "special period", in 1992, when the Americans strengthened their blockade right after the demise of the Soviet Union.

We hear all kinds of things about Cuba. This is why Cuba-Nouvelles is striving to reveal facts that can be objectively verified. You can verify the figures I quoted. The average Cuban's purchasing power has increased by nearly 50% during the past two years. This is the result of Canada's constructive economic policy and Canada's presence in Cuba.

If the United States' blockade was lifted tomorrow morning, Cuba's standard of living could well become four or five times higher. Trade between Cuba and the United States is very limited. It amounts to approximately US$300 million to US$400 million per year. This is merely a drop in the bucket for a country with a population of nearly 12 million.

This trade is subjected to very difficult conditions. Some products are available in Cuba, but the government, the people and the State of Cuba usually have to purchase such products at twice or three times the normal price. For instance, to purchase a bag of cement whose wholesale price is only a few dollars, it costs up to $10 or $15 to ship it from Europe, and a ship is denied access to American ports for the six months that follow.

Let me conclude by raising a second point regarding political prisoners. Imagine if tomorrow morning Canada found out that Saudi Arabia or the government of Iran or Pakistan were paying Canadians four or five times the minimum wage to help Canada make a peaceful and democratic transition to an Islamic regime because those countries feel that our monarchy is obsolete. I think that the Canadian government would not stand for it.

This is exactly what is happening in Cuba. People caught receiving $200 or $300 a month—I already mentioned the cost of living in Cuba—have been jailed. It was not because of their opinions. Many people who are opposed to the regime in Cuba are free to walk the streets, but those who collaborate with the enemy are jailed.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Mr. Taylor Sol indicated he wanted to....

Just stop the time for a second.

Did you say that the U.S. policy was tantamount to attempted genocide? I heard you say this in French, but my French is not perfect.

12:05 p.m.

Cuba-Nouvelles

Philippe Leroux

I am not the one saying this. Several international organizations say that the United States' blockade against Cuba is attempted genocide.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Thank you.

Mr. Taylor Sol.

12:10 p.m.

Director, Ottawa Delegation, Cuban Canadian Foundation

Nelson Taylor Sol

When I listen to these facts, I have the impression that I'm listening to a Cuban radio station. I am from Cuba. I was born in Cuba. I was raised in Cuba. I left my country to go to Jamaica, and from Jamaica I came to Canada.

Cuba was traditionally attracting immigrants from all over the world. My grandparents were immigrants from Jamaica. Not even Haitians want to stay in Cuba now. So obviously we are talking about two different countries. It's like the sun and the moon; it's absolutely....

These facts are provided by the Cuban government, the same government that doesn't accept the existence of political prisoners in Cuba. How do you trust a totalitarian regime to provide reliable information regarding human rights, regarding health care, regarding education?

In Cuba we are indoctrinated in communism. There is no right to choose education. You must study communism whether you like it or not. If you are a Jehovah's Witness, you are not allowed to enter university. When I was in high school, the best student in my class was a Jehovah's Witness, and she was banned from the university. Everyone was very sad for this girl because she was the best student and she was not allowed into university.

Cubans have been persecuted for religious reasons, for political reasons, for ideological reasons, even for thinking differently. The fact that I am in Canada talking about human rights in Cuba makes someone wonder, why is this human rights committee being addressed? Why not talk in Cuba about human rights in Cuba?

I had to come from Cuba to Canada to listen to Canadians who go as tourists to Cuba, who spend 25 days or a year--I don't know how long--when I, myself, as a Cuban, am allowed to go to Cuba for only three weeks. That's the maximum. And most probably, after this meeting I won't be allowed to enter Cuba at all.

So I don't know which country we are talking about here. It makes absolutely no sense.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Mr. Camejo, I'm sorry, we've run out of time on this round.

12:10 p.m.

Interpretation

Asdrubal Caner Camejo

Only one minute.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

No, sorry, it's going to go now to Mr. Sorenson.

May 1st, 2007 / 12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

I'll give him some of mine.

Go ahead, Mr. Caner Camejo.

12:10 p.m.

Interpretation

Asdrubal Caner Camejo

I'll take only one minute. This is a situation we have had for 50 years in Cuba. It's in television, radio, everywhere. I will give you one simple example.

I was doing my PhD in Cuba and was looking for data, for information. I went to every sugar factory in my province, Santiago de Cuba, and in all of the country. When you see the information from the factory, the information of the province, and the national information, it is totally different information. I don't believe in the statistics of the Cuban regime.

Also, the Economic Commission for Latin America, the CEPAL, rejected the information the Cuban regime gave them. They said, that's enough, that's it, because Fidel Castro wanted to change the whole methodology of how to look at economic improvements. For that reason I don't believe in all these statistics.

They say that Cuba is a very free country. My party is a socialist party. We don't want established capitalism in Cuba; we want a Cuba like Canada, with a market economy and social programs. My party, which is looking for a life such as in Canada, is not allowed to participate in elections like other parties in Cuba. There are approximately, at this moment, 450 organizations in Cuba. There are some big parties, such as my party, and there are others, such as the Christian Democratic party, or movement, in Cuba.

The problem is the embargo. The embargo really affected Cuba in the first three years, 1963, 1964, and 1965. It is finished. From that moment on, the system hasn't worked; the governmental property hasn't worked.

In Cuba there is a saying in Spanish: El ojo del amo engorda al caballo....

12:10 p.m.

Interpreter, As an Individual

Ronald Silvester

The eye of the master fattens up the horse.

12:10 p.m.

Interpretation

Asdrubal Caner Camejo

There is no owner in Cuba—nobody—who takes care of the property there. The government pays the workers and the workers have work, but it doesn't work.

Why is there an embargo? Cuba has bought from the United States, up to now, $2 billion in product. For what reason does Cuba need to pay $1.7 billion for food that we can produce in Cuba? There is no agriculture in Cuba at the moment.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Thank you.

Mr. Sorenson.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much. It's not very often I say to a socialist, good job.

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

12:15 p.m.

An hon. member

A social democrat.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Yes, a social democrat.

You certainly expressed I think what we all recognize. We all recognize that what they have in Cuba is not working. Communism doesn't work. It never has worked. I applaud you for saying that you want a market economy, that you may not want to become a pure socialist country, that capitalism does work. We thank you for that.

You talk about free trade and all those things. We appreciate that. I guess it comes back to what Mr. Cotler says. The agreements Canada has made with Cuba perhaps aren't working to the degree they should.

We're a human rights committee here. We're a subcommittee of the foreign affairs committee, which right now is doing a report on democratic development. I have two questions.

How can Canada move Cuba towards democracy?

Secondly, in 2003 there were measures taken by the previous government in regard to the 75 prisoners who were taken. From what I understand, I don't think there was a lot of satisfaction with what seems to have transpired. What can Canada do specifically for those people who are in prison?

We want to see Cuba take certain measures, but if we bring these human rights issues up, it might push some of the other things away.

My questions are for Mr. Taylor Sol and Mr. Caner Camejo—Mr. Taylor Sol first.

12:15 p.m.

Director, Ottawa Delegation, Cuban Canadian Foundation

Nelson Taylor Sol

My answer is probably to both questions in one. I think Canada should make economic relations with Cuba conditional on human rights, release of political prisoners, freedom of expression, allowing Cubans to own property according to—

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

In other words, we won't do anything economically because those communists aren't going to do it.