Evidence of meeting #17 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cuban.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB
I don't even want the International Criminal Court left in this motion. Let them—
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Colleagues, Mr. Chair, I think we need to look at this along a broader spectrum. First of all, as my colleague, Mr. Sorenson, said, leave the country to the signatories. And some people have said, well, Darfur and others have committed.... Now there's a difference between committed and threatened.
At the same time, what makes it Canada's responsibility? Israel has not taken any such action. What makes it our responsibility or duty to second-guess the decision taken by the Government of Israel for their own security?
Down the road, I don't need to tell the Honourable Irwin Cotler that there are huge other geopolitical considerations; otherwise the United States would have taken this action as well.
I think that if the country that is threatened has taken no action, why should we second-guess their...?
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
It's a statement of fact, as I tried to suggest to Mr. Khan before, that Israel has in fact made that reference to the United Nations. And, secondly, I don't think we have to be governed by what Israel does or does not do; I'm talking about what Canada should do as a state party to the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. I think I should remind us all that Iran is a state party to that convention. They have undertaken, therefore, not to incite genocide—Iran has.
I'm just saying, UN, consider what has been done by state parties to the convention on genocide.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
What has Israel done, sir? Have they taken action? Have they sent the reference to the Security Council?
Conservative
Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB
They have not asked that it be sent to the International Criminal Court.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
May I say, both of you are saying two different things. You asked me has Israel brought the matter up at the UN? Yes, Ambassador Gillerman has brought it up to the UN Security Council.
Has Israel asked that it be referred to the International Criminal Court? The answer is no.
My question to you is, we are Canadians and we make decisions about what Canada should do. If you want to know what Israel does, I've told you what Israel has done.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
I agree with Mr. Cotler that this is about what Canada should do and not about what another country should do. However, in order to respect the intent of the motion, I'm wondering if we shouldn't replace "for investigation and prosecution", following the words "international criminal court", with the words "in order to determine the basis of an investigation and prosecution".
Conservative
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
In order to determine the basis for investigation and prosecution.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
We'll come back to all of them. We have several friendly amendments, and I'm a little confused, but if I could pursue a substantive point with Mr. Cotler....
Your point is well taken, Irwin, that Canada should act according to its own light on matters of foreign policy, but I am wondering if you have any idea why the State of Israel has not requested a referral to the ICC?
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
The State of Israel has said it would not be opposed to--and in fact would welcome--other countries asking for a reference to the ICC. But Israel is not a state party to the ICC, and therefore it felt it should not be the one to ask.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
Oh, that's why.
Has this matter been a point of some contention in Israeli legal strategic circles--the idea you have proposed here?
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
There are two things. One, Israel initially did not want to ratify the International Criminal Court, for its own reasons. I wrote critically about that at the time. On this specific issue, Israel supports a reference to the UN Security Council and asking them to refer it, but they don't want to be the ones to do it.
As I said, I don't think what they do or want to do should impact on what we want to do.
Conservative
Bloc
Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC
Mr. Chairman, I have listened to my colleague's comments as well as the comments from the government side and I must admit that I am somewhat perplexed.
I told Mr. Cotler this from the outset and I will repeat it again today. I am not certain that this is the right place to be discussing this motion. We are the Subcommittee of the International Human Rights Committee. I do understand Mr. Cotler's intention, but I am not sure whether to support him or to vote against. I think that this deserves a much broader discussion. I realize that you have wanted to have this discussion for a long time, but there has been no exchange or debate on this issue and we can't expect to deal with the whole issue in 20 minutes. Others have tried before us, and they have not succeeded.
On the other hand, it seems to me that we could send this motion to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development which, in my opinion, would be in a much better position to consider this issue than we are. In my humble opinion we are being asked to discuss this in half an hour, based on evidence that is perhaps interesting but rather weak given that this is hearsay. We have heard nothing ourselves.
I have to admit that I am quite sincerely uncomfortable with both possibilities. I think it would be unfortunate if this motion was adopted or defeated. I would like it to be the subject of a discussion, but I believe that it would be up to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to do this.