Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 1st, 2007

[Asdrubal Caner Camejo]

No. To me, it's a stupid thing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Mr. Leroux.

[Philippe Leroux]

Let me simply state that I take great care to stick to the facts and to avoid voicing opinions. My sources are not the Cuban authorities, they are exclusively international organizations or international press reports. I do not think that AFP, Reuters, Associated Press, the United Nations and UNESCO can be considered as unreliable sources with regard to the Cuban regime. My ultimate source is, of course, the White House in Washington, and it does not favour the Cuban government.

You want to know what Canada can do and what its policies are accomplishing. A UNESCO report that was published last March stated that the Cuban system had succeeded in saving the lives of 420,000 children in recent years. If the Cuban regime had been the same as those in the rest of Latin America, if it had been a system that we could call capitalist, social democratic or if it went by some other name unknown to me because there is great diversity all over Latin America, especially in public health systems, 420,000 children or adults would not be alive today. As Canadians, do we really want to raise our flag over this kind of graveyard?

You want to know what we should do. Let me tell you about the report made by Ms. Christine Chanet, a personal representative with the United Nations High Commission for Human Rights. This lady was repeatedly turned away from Cuban territory where she wanted to carry out an investigation, because the Cubans have always rejected the accusations levelled at them. They have consistently cooperated with all international authorities, except in cases where they were seeking to condemn some country or other.

Now Ms. Chanet, who is obviously very critical of the Cuban system, clearly stated that the leading cause of human rights violations, especially economic, social and cultural rights as well as civil and political rights, is the blockade imposed by the United States. This is the position of the United Nations Human Rights Commission, that has been dealing with this issue for the past 20 years.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I agree, but can you go to the prisoners, please, and the judicial system? Are the prisoners who are in jail, regardless of whether they are guilty or not, getting the minimum human rights?

[Philippe Leroux]

Yes, absolutely. Some people have indeed been jailed in Cuba for posing a threat to Cuba national security. Canada is using security certificates to do the same thing. However, Cubans have the right to a trial and to legal counsel, which is not the case for people arrested in Canada by using a security certificate. Moreover, more than 600 prisoners are being tortured in Cuba. This fact is recognized by all international authorities. These prisoners are tortured by our chief economic and military ally, the United States, at Guantanamo Bay. Of course, people have been jailed in Cuba for collaborating with the Government of the United States in exchange for money. Evidence has been adduced and I could show it to you if you wish. I have receipts for the money paid to those so-called independent dissidents.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

That is the end.

I'll allow ten seconds for you to make a point, but we will—

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

It's a very quick point.

You are saying, Madam, there are property rights. This gentleman is saying there are no property rights. How do we know?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

We'll take that as a rhetorical question. We're into rounds where there are five minutes.

I'll pass it to Mr. Cotler, but I'm going to use the chair's prerogative here to follow up on the statement you just made, Mr. Leroux.

You paraphrased the special report submitted by a Christine Chanet to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights on the situation of human rights in Cuba. You effectively paraphrased her as saying that the American embargo is the principal cause of any problems with respect to violations of rights, including civil and political rights. Is that a fair summary of what you just said, in that respect?

I have, actually, Madame Chanet's submission, which has been circulated to all committee members. In fact, to quote from her in the summary, she says:

The...tension between Cuba and the United States...has created a climate which is far from conducive to the development of freedom of expression and freedom of assembly.

That's certainly different from saying that it's the cause. To say that it's not “conducive” is to say that it's not helpful. That's substantively different from suggesting that it is the principal cause of any human rights violations. I wondered if perhaps you could provide us with citations, rather than a kind of paraphrase.

[Philippe Leroux]

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I invite you to read the previous paragraph of the comprehensive report. I was not able to summarize it: I was referring to the full report, which I consulted once again last night on the United Nations' website. In the first paragraph of the first chapter, the United States' blockade is discussed. I did not say that it is the main cause, I said that Ms. Chanet presented it as being the first cause. In fact, from the first line of the first paragraph of the report, she says she feels the American embargo has very seriously affected the economic, social and cultural rights of the Cuban population. Three paragraphs further, she says that civil and political rights are also affected. That is the paragraph that is found just before the one I have just quoted you.

If you wish, I could find that information when I go back to my office and send it to the clerk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I don't see it. I encourage all committee members to review it, because that's not what I see in front of me in the report.

Mr. Cotler, we can now go to you.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like once again to invite the other witnesses to answer the question that I asked, which is as follows: How can we protect human rights in Cuba?

I would like to add a question to the one you asked.

Has the UN Human Rights Council been helpful in promoting and protecting human rights in Cuba? And what can the UN Human Rights Council do and what can Canada do through the UN Human Rights Council to help protect human rights in Cuba?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Is that to anyone in particular, Mr. Cotler?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes, it could be to anyone in particular.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Who would you like to begin with?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

With any one of the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

We'll start with Mr. Leroux and then go to Mr. Taylor Sol. Please be brief.

[Philippe Leroux]

I'll give you a very short answer. Canada is only 1 of the 192 member States of the United Nations. We don't pretend to believe that we have the ability and the power to manage what is happening in Cuba. As a country—as Ms. Savoie was saying earlier on—it is not Canada's tradition to interfere in the affairs of others, to decide on behalf of the population of another country.

You asked me what the situation is and what we can do. I would say that the 49 years of the American economic embargo with Cuba, of media wars, even terrorist activity at a certain point in time have given the results we are all aware of. It is an impoverished country in which the human rights situation is very difficult.

What can Canada do now? I would say first of all that it could perhaps stop denouncing the embargo, and perhaps finally demand that our principal ally and partner abandon this embargo, which is recognized as being the first source of the attack on human rights in Cuba. Secondly, it could recognize that Cuba is the only Latin American country where, over the last few decades, no journalist has been assassinated, and recognize that Cuba is the only Latin American country where, over the last few decades, no unionist has been assassinated.

Canada could also conduct a real inquiry, in light of the 30 articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, summing up the respect and status of human rights in each of the countries of Latin America and the Caribbean. Following that, it could probably work with Cuba in order to send doctors to Haiti and to Afghanistan, rather than having our soldiers killed there. Also, it could work with Cuba on literacy in Latin America so that the citizens of those countries could obtain basic human rights. Let us not forget that an illiterate person is a person who is deprived of all political and civil rights. Currently, Cuba is one of the rare developing countries in this world to fight against illiteracy. Finally, Canada could carry out a factual and objective analysis of the true situation as far as the respect for the 30 articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are concerned in the Latin American countries. It would therefore see that Cuba is probably not the place where human rights are the most threatened.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you.

Mr. Taylor Sol, on the same....

[Nelson Taylor Sol]

In my opinion, national sovereignty cannot be an excuse not to demand freedom from totalitarian regimes like Cuba's—Fidel Castro's. It's a government that has ruled for 48 years for one clan, basically. There is no free election; obviously, there is no respect for human life. National sovereignty cannot be an excuse not to demand freedom and make economic relationships conditional on respect for human rights.

If Canada is not going to break relationships with Cuba, they should at least not assist the repression of the Cuban people, who are not benefiting at all from the relationship with Canada.

Talking about the United States—it seems that the United States is a recurrent topic here.... The United States, again—one more time—is providing most of the food and medicine that Cuba consumes right now. If we are going to talk about the United States, probably another subcommittee should be set up to talk about human rights issues in the United States. But right now we are talking about human rights issues in Cuba, and that has nothing to do with the fact that there is an embargo. Cubans can buy everything Americans produce, everywhere in the world. Even if it is an item provided only by a specific American company, they can get it from another country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Okay?

We're done with that time, Mr. Cotler, I'm afraid.

Next is a government round, and I'd like to pursue the line of questioning I began with respect to the special report to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights on the situation of human rights in Cuba, since Mr. Leroux has raised this as an authoritative study.

I'm looking here at the recommendations of her report, section 5, paragraph 35, because all of the committee members here have been asking for solutions. My own view here is that Mr. Caner Camejo is opposed to the blockade but in favour of diplomatic pressure to release political prisoners.

Is that a fair characterization of your position, Mr. Taylor Sol?

[Nelson Taylor Sol]

In my opinion, the story has been hijacked by the embargo. Canada is the second export partner of Cuba, and Canada must do something. There are countries that are right now taking a stand on human rights in Cuba.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Okay, so you're in favour of tying economic issues with human rights issues.

[Nelson Taylor Sol]

One hundred percent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

The other line of questioning has been trying to elicit from Monsieur O'Donoghue, Monsieur Leroux, and Madame Lavergne their advice on how Canada should deal with the issue of political prisoners.

I would hope we could find a consensus somewhere here that engagement should include appropriate political and diplomatic pressure for the release of political prisoners.

In any event, let me just summarize the recommendations made by Christine Chanet in her report to the UN human rights commission. She recommends the following:

Halt the prosecution of citizens who are exercising the rights guaranteed under the...[UN] Declaration of Human Rights;

Release detained persons who have not committed acts of violence against individuals and property;

Review laws which lead to criminal prosecutions of persons exercising their freedom of expression, assembly and association, [etc.]...;

Uphold, without exception, the moratorium on the application of the death penalty...with a view to...[its] abolition...;

Reform the rules of criminal procedure to bring them into line with the requirements of...the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;

Establish a standing independent body...[to receive] complaints from persons claiming that their fundamental rights have been violated;

Review the regulations relating to travel into and out of Cuba in order to guarantee freedom of movement...;

Authorize non-governmental organizations to enter Cuba;

Foster pluralism in respect of associations, trade unions, organs of the press and political parties in Cuba;

--and finally--

Accede to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and its optional protocols and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

Those are the recommendations that the special rapporteur has made to the United Nations. Is there anybody on this panel who disagrees with any of those recommendations?

Is there anybody who disagrees? Is there anybody who would object if our committee were to include essentially an echo of the recommendations made to the United Nations?

Monsieur O'Donoghue.

[Sean O'Donoghue]

Some comments, for example, suggest that they are political prisoners. It is not limited to that.