Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 1st, 2007

[Nelson Taylor Sol]

The thing is that Canada should follow the pattern with apartheid systems, to condition economics to certain social conditions that are implemented later on. I think Canada should follow this pattern, which has succeeded already with South Africa. According to the Heritage Foundation, among 157 countries, Cuba is 156th when it comes to economic freedom, only above North Korea.

To inherit property is not allowed. Cubans, once they left the country, even if the house belonged to a great-great-grandparent from the 18th century, had to leave the house they were born in, had to leave the furniture, the fan, the TV. Every single item was inventoried by the government, and they had to return it. So I don't know what right of property we have to talk about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

We'll have to leave it there. We're out of time for that round.

We'll go to Madame Savoie.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Just to pick up on my Conservative colleague's comments, I certainly think it's been demonstrated that capitalism is not synonymous with democracy. I further don't know that it's Canada's responsibility or right to move Cuba from outside towards a different political system. I think democracy, as we've seen it in Iran and as we know in Afghanistan, grows from inside. It's not something that's imposed by another country. I want to leave that aside.

I believe that we must decry human rights violations wherever they are. In this respect, I think that Canada is not perfect. For example, the rights of aboriginals have not always been respected. Recently, we saw that the Conservative government abolished the Court Challenges Program, that provided people whose rights had been violated with help to respond. Canada should not pretend to have a solution for every problem. Just like my colleague, I am a bit confused. We have heard very positive and very negative opinions. Either everything is perfect or everything is bad. The truth is, no doubt, somewhere in between.

I would like to know how Canada can help Cubans to improve their situation. I am not talking about changing the political party. In fact, as I said earlier, democracy cannot be exported. How can we provide help without meddling in Cuba's internal affairs? Does the American blockade have an impact on human rights?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Do you want to address a specific witness?

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

No. I put this question to those who wish to answer it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Ms. Lavergne has not had the opportunity to answer a question. Could we begin with her?

[Colette Lavergne]

Let me make a comment and I will also answer your question.

We have heard that there is no private property in Cuba. I live in Cuba, in Carahatas, in a rural area, in cooperatives like credit and service cooperatives, farm cooperatives and basic production unit cooperatives. Eighty per cent of the land belongs to the people, and I live in these cooperatives. Do not try to tell me that Cubans do not own their homes. This is completely false. They own their homes and they are very proud to show them to us.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

In the little time that we have left, could you propose some solutions?

[Colette Lavergne]

Canada has always been against the blockade. The United States' blockade is what hurts the most, as everyone here agrees. Medicines that might cost US$5 arrive in Cuba after having gone around the world and not just 140 km. Thus, it costs US$35. The government pays a very high price, and Cubans get the product for free, or they pay for it in pesos, which is the national currency.

Therefore, we must condemn the United States' government meddling in Cuban affairs. That would help the Cuban people. Despite the difficulties, Cuban are managing to get by fairly well.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Therefore, should we directly condemn the blockade?

[Colette Lavergne]

We must condemn it. Canada has always been friendly to the Cuban people. There are powerful bonds of friendship between Canadians and Cubans. Cuba still has friends all over the world. We must not forget the courage of the Cuban people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Mr. O'Donoghue, you haven't had much of a chance to answer yet. Go ahead briefly, please.

[Sean O'Donoghue]

We must respect Cuba's right to solve its own problems. Since the revolution, external interventions have sought to change the country's regime, but things should not be done in that way. There is a real need to put pressure on international forums so that Cuba can choose its own path.

The prisoners are people paid by a foreign government to overthrow the Cuban government. They are not political prisoners, they are common prisoners. I really think that in order to help the Cubans, we must allow them to live without external pressure, especially from the United States. They are investing millions of dollars to overthrow the Cuban government and bring Cuba back. If this ever happened, it would be a true disaster: it would mean war. The Cubans are ready to defend themselves. We would then have a situation like the one that we are now facing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Canada must not go down that road.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Do I have two minutes left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

You have one minute.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Let me address Mr. Caner-Camejo.

[Asdrubal Caner Camejo]

First of all, for me, it's an insult that some people speak here and say that political dissidence in Cuba is paid for by the United States or something. The people in Cuba are working in the worst conditions. They don't have food. They don't have anything.

This is some kind of lie that permanently the Cuban government is using. The first thing the Cuban government did was to create the enemy. Who is the enemy? It's the United States. Okay, but the real enemy in Cuba is the Cuban people, because the Cuban people can't protest, can't speak out about the situation there. They say they are mercenaries, CIA agents, and so on, and that they are paid.

But I will concentrate on something you said. We don't want Canadian companies to leave Cuba. What is the position Canada can take, or what is, in my opinion, something Canada can do for Cuba? It can use pressure—political pressure concerning the political prisoners, freedom of speech, for freedom to reform.

This is my position. This is why I recommend it to you. Canada has the right to have business anywhere in the world, and Cuba is a place that needs Canada in the future. We need more of Canada in the future than we have now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you. Thank you for that.

We'll now start the second round, with Mr. Khan.

Go ahead, Mr. Khan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen and ladies.

I'm more confused about Cuba. I thought I knew everything about Cuba until I came to this meeting, and I have gotten such contrarian opinions.

I always thought that foreign direct investment by a company, as you said, sir, helps create jobs, helps economic development. However, I guess you want some other caveat attached to it: don't invest in Cuba unless there are human rights. It's pretty complicated stuff.

My question to you, sir, is this. Are you telling me there is no foreign interference in Cuba from any country on the globe? That's number one.

Number two is this. I understand the prisoners may be paid by somebody, but they've gone to Cuba, you've tried them, presumably, and you've put them in jail. Once they're in jail, are their human rights being abused? Or are they providing at least minimum jail facilities?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Are you directing that question to someone in particular?

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

One question was to you, sir, about the interference, and then the second question could be answered by Mr. Philippe Leroux.

[Asdrubal Caner Camejo]

Yes, there is interference. The United States is interfering.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You just said, sir, that they don't interfere. We are assuming that they're interfering.

[Asdrubal Caner Camejo]

No, no, they interfere in the sense that they have a commission for a free Cuba and so on. The solution for Cuba will come from the Cuban people, and we don't like the United States or another country entering into this problem. We need to look for a solution.

The only thing we need from Canada, Europe, the United States, and so on is pressure concerning the situation of freedom in Cuba, for the rights of the people.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Do you support the embargo, sir?