Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Good morning, colleagues.

I call this meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to order.

Our first order of business is to continue our study of the Canada-China human rights dialogue, and the broader question of human rights in the People's Republic of China. In that respect, we're very fortunate to have with us today two witnesses who are representatives of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I would ask Mr. Wangdi and Mr. Gyari to please take their seats at the committee table.

We have before us Tashi Wangdi, who is the representative to the Americas of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and Mr. Lodi Gyari, who is a special envoy of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, particularly with respect to discussions with the People's Republic of China. We welcome both of you gentlemen.

I understand, Mr. Wangdi, you're going to be beginning with a presentation, and then Mr. Gyari. The format is that you both have a brief period to make remarks. I'd encourage you to make remarks to brief this committee on the status of the China-Tibet negotiations and perhaps also the current situation in Tibet. When both of you are done, then we will take questions from committee members.

Please go ahead, Mr. Wangdi.

[Tashi Wangdi, Representative of His Holiness the Dalai Lama for the Americas, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the subcommittee, ladies and gentlemen, it is indeed a great pleasure and honour for my senior colleague, Mr. Lodi Gyari, and me to have this opportunity to address the subcommittee and make opening brief remarks. I will start the remarks from our side.

I think the most important thing this morning would be to hear from Mr. Lodi Gyari, who is the special envoy of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, based in Washington, but more importantly he is the head of the delegation for negotiations with the Chinese government. He has this very difficult responsibility of trying to find a peacefully negotiated settlement to a very complicated and difficult problem.

I will just make a brief opening remark about the current situation in Tibet and the human rights issue. When we talk about the human rights issue, I think we are talking about symptoms of a much larger problem. It is just a symptom, I believe.

Recently I am sure you have been following a very tragic, sad incident that happened at the Tibet-Nepal border at the beginning of last month when a group of unarmed, innocent Tibet refugees escaping into exile were shot at and there was death and serious injuries. But this is not an isolated incident. This has been happening for more than five decades, but unfortunately much of it has gone unnoticed by the international community. What happened early last month received international attention because it happened in the presence of foreigners, the mountain climbers who had actually witnessed it.

But the interesting thing, which again is illustrative of the situation in Tibet and the problems our people have been facing, is the Chinese official response to this. They said that the shooting was done in self-defence. To make such a blatant statement, totally baseless, in the context of the whole incident having been witnessed by not only one or two individuals but a group of foreign mountain climbers, and I think it was an Albanian who in fact was able to record it.... I'm sure you have seen this. You have seen the reports. And now the whole video film is available on a website. This just illustrates how much distortion, how much has been presented by the Chinese government to the international community as being a completely different matter.

I'll just say this to give an illustration of the depth of the problem and of the difficulty the international community has in really understanding the problem. There was an earlier incident in 1987 in response to a peaceful demonstration by Tibetans in Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet. It was very ruthlessly suppressed; many people lost their lives. And again, that received a certain amount of international attention because there were foreigners in Lhasa at that time. Secondly, a very brave Tibetan, working in the Chinese information department, managed to get a copy of the official film, shot by the official team, of what exactly happened. Actually, that was not for publicity. That was smuggled out of Tibet within a matter of a couple of days and that was shown to the outside world.

At that time, also, the Chinese government tried to stage the whole story by saying that it was in response to provocations by Tibetans. A very interesting thing was that a Chinese journalist who was officially covering at that time and after that the Tiananmen Square event also sided with the Chinese students and came out. He wrote an account of that and he very clearly recorded that when the peaceful Tibetan demonstration was taking place, the Chinese officials had left loaded rifles on the street corners and they had positioned cameras. They wanted the Tibetans to pick up the loaded rifles and use them and that would have been the pretext for suppression.

The suppression did take place, and before the Tiananmen Square event in 1989. Tibet was under martial law in 1988.

That kind of situation just gives a very rough account of our situation in Tibet. And this has been going on, as I said, for more than five decades.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan leadership have decided to find a solution to this problem. I would describe this as a vicious circle. There is suppression, resistance, more suppression, and this has been going on. As has been recorded, more than 1.2 million Tibetans have died in the last 50 years. What happened early last month is just the tip of the iceberg. It's a much larger problem.

We have to get out of this vicious circle, this problem. The only way we can do it is through negotiations. Also, there is this Tibetan movement, this non-violent movement, this peaceful movement, and unfortunately, it doesn't attract that much international attention. At the same time, I think in the last number of years there have been, of course, governments, parliaments—

I would also mention here that we are very grateful to the Canadian government, the Canadian Parliament for their support, and particularly, I think, in the case of the recent instance of the foreign minister's very strong statement in Parliament in response to a question. This is something that we deeply appreciate, and we are very grateful for that. Also, over the years, members of Parliament have taken an interest. I think this kind of thing is of course important.

Sometimes I think there's an impression that China doesn't care about international opinion. I would venture to say that it is the opposite. They do care.

Some years ago--I think it was more than 15 years ago--there was a Chinese official internal document. It was a directive issued from Beijing to the local officials. It stated that the officials have to be very careful in how they handle the situation in Tibet. They said that if a pin dropped in Tibet, it would vibrate around the world. So they are sensitive.

The negotiation process, of course, was started about twenty years ago. It went through ups and downs, but it was never taken to its logical conclusion. There was a total breakdown for about ten years, and then about five or six years ago, His Holiness again wanted to restart this process. He appointed two of his senior advisers to restart this contact and start the process of dialogue. Mr. Lodi Gyari and his colleague, Mr. Kelsang Gyaltsen, were given this difficult responsibility. They have successfully re-established contact, and there have been five rounds of dialogue.

If I were to give an account of what is happening in Tibet now or what has happened, it would be a very sad, tragic story. But we don't want to be bogged down in the past. We want to move forward and find a solution. And that is what we are trying to do. There is a very sincere, committed effort to find a negotiated solution.

I think today it may be more useful for the committee to hear from Mr. Lodi Gyari, the person who is responsible for this, about the dialogue, its process, the difficulties in taking the dialogue forward, and the present status. I think that may be important. As I said, if we can solve the larger issue, the bigger problem, then the other issues, like human rights violations and these things, which are only symptoms.... We are now trying to tackle the main problem. I think it will be very important for the committee to hear from Mr. Lodi Gyari about this important issue.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wangdi.

Mr. Gyari, go ahead, please.

[Lodi Gyari, Special Envoy of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, As an Individual]

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my colleague and I feel greatly honoured to be invited to testify at your committee.

Certainly we come here not to badmouth the Chinese government, not to do China-bashing, because in my case particularly, the responsibility that was given to me by His Holiness is to reach out to the Chinese government.

At the same time, we believe--and this is something we have made very clear to the Chinese government--that until such time as we find a solution to the Tibet issue, until such time as the Chinese government starts to respect the fundamental rights of the Tibetan people, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and all of us also have a moral and historical responsibility to our people to speak the truth. So it is in that spirit that we come in the presence of this august committee to speak today.

We also believe, as my colleague has very clearly stated, that for the Chinese and us to find a solution, there is an important role for the international community. Particularly, the government and the Parliament of Canada have an important role to play. Again, the role is not just siding with one party and trying to be unfriendly to the other; it's a role that can ultimately help both the Chinese and the Tibetans find a solution that will be mutually beneficial.

For the last five years I have been directly in touch with the Chinese government. We have had five rounds of meetings. I just wanted to share with you that as far as the meetings go, we are quite satisfied. I say we are quite satisfied because I also had the honour or the difficult task of being part of a delegation that His Holiness sent to China as early as 1982 and 1984.

Compared with the experience that we had in those periods, I must say that the experience I have had in the last five rounds is much more encouraging. I say “encouraging” because the Chinese government has, in my view, in some limited manner come to a situation where they are also beginning to learn to listen to our viewpoint. Those of you who live in total freedom may even find it astonishing and say, “What does he mean? Don't listen.” But we know from our experience that there was a time we did not even have an opportunity to express our views.

So to us that definitely is an important departure. Also, I say it is encouraging because for the first time both parties, both the Chinese and us, have been able to speak in our discussions very candidly of our differences. I say “differences” because at the present moment the only success that I can share with you is the success in being able to more or less identify our differences. Unfortunately, we have not even begun to explore, particularly from the Chinese side, resolving the issues. But I can certainly say that we have begun, and we have, I think, quite successfully at least identified our differences.

I think the Chinese government's official statement and the statements that I have issued after our visits are identical. Basically what we say is that we have now been able to identify our differences; therefore, now we know that the gap is very wide. The differences are many, and many of the differences are fundamental.

That having been said, under the guidance of His Holiness the Tibetan side remains fully committed to trying to bridge that gap and trying to minimize our differences and ultimately to be able to find a solution.

In a way, if the Chinese leaders have the political will I really think it is not as complex as it looks sometimes. On our position and the Chinese position, if you look at it purely from a political point of view we think the major gap has been bridged. Unfortunately, it has been bridged not by the Chinese government but by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

When His Holiness the Dalai Lama came out with the very difficult but very courageous decision to look for a solution, not seeking independence, but within the confines of the People's Republic of China, we feel we met the most important concern or position of the Chinese government.

If you recall, when we first established relations in 1979 there were two clear messages from the then paramount leader Deng Xiaoping. First, don't talk about independence; that is non-negotiable. Second, if you accept the fact that you're not seeking independence and you're looking for a solution within the People's Republic of China, everything can be discussed. From their point of view, independence was not acceptable. For us, any other things we would discuss.

Unfortunately, the Chinese government continued to always lecture us privately and publicly that we couldn't talk about Tibetan independence--which we're not. But they continued to accuse His Holiness of having this hidden agenda. As I said on one of my visits, we always have the first message repeated, but we quite often don't have the second part of that message, that if we don't talk about independence everything can be discussed. To be very candid, we have not been permitted to discuss everything until now. Forget about meeting our hopes and even being allowed to discuss them. But there has been some slight change, and at least now they listen to our views.

So we have reached a very critical stage. We are now able to identify the differences, and are going to make efforts to see if we can somehow overcome those differences. This is where the international community, and particularly a country like Canada, which has historically had rather cordial relations with the Chinese government.... For the last many years I have kind of voluntarily decided not to go around testifying before many committees, but I felt I should join my colleague. Because of Canada's relationship with China you will be able to understand our motives a little better. It is important for us to be able to seek your help.

For example, Canada has the unique experience of dealing with its own situation. It may be of great help if you are willing to share, with both His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government, your experiences in dealing with these issues. Unfortunately, right now the Chinese are in a kind of self-denial. They feel the best way to deal with the situation is to suppress it, put it under the rug, and impose their own way of thinking. But I think you have tried to deal with it differently. You could invite His Holiness here the next time he comes, so he could get a deeper understanding of how you have handled some of the issues, and the Chinese--hopefully together, which I think might be a little difficult at this stage--separately.

One of the issues for us is the preservation of our distinctive Tibetan identity, in which language is one of the key issues. If you look in the Chinese constitution and the Chinese bylaws you may find them quite similar in origin to what you have, but in reality there is no possibility for the Tibetans to mention the bilingual aspect of it. Here again, you have dealt with that, so therefore you could maybe even encourage the Chinese, but it's not enough to put it in writing; they must really implement it.

These are the kinds of things that we hope you will be able to help us on. Specifically with the regard to the negotiations, I hope, at least from our side, that we are ready for the next round, which would be the sixth round. I had already communicated to our Chinese counterparts some time ago our readiness to come back. In fact, both my colleague and I came back from Dharamsala, where we spent several days of intense discussions among ourselves and where we very thoroughly examined the proceedings of the last round, where, as I mentioned, Mr. Chairman, we identified our differences on both sides. We go back, at least from our side, with a number of important decisions where we tried to meet with some of China's concerns. Similarly, it is our hope that when we go back the Chinese government has in the interim also given serious consideration to our point of view and will at least make an effort to address some of the issues we have raised.

In a nutshell, what we ask has always been very transparent. While this is a very daunting and unpleasant task, on the other hand I tell people that my task is also not very complicated, because we have a leader who has always been forthright, very transparent. Therefore, we have always gone to the Chinese with our bottom line. The way we are negotiating is in a very unique Tibetan style, not learning from any of the textbooks of the modern-day negotiations.

We basically have stated that we are willing to stay within China but we need--all the Tibetan people today residing within the People's Republic of China--to be given the maximum self-rule in areas where we know best how to preserve our language, our culture, our way of life. These are basic things for all Tibetans.

At the present moment, when the Chinese government talks about Tibet, they are only talking about half of Tibet in terms of the physical and also in terms of the population. The rest of the Tibetan people are now in various Chinese provinces, but they are all identified as Tibetan autonomous areas. In fact, the areas that we would like to put together are already identified, and if you look at the Chinese political map, they are already designated as Tibetan autonomous areas. So what we have been asking is not at all complex.

We have also made it very clear that His Holiness himself has no personal agenda. He has made it very clear that the moment he is able to help conclude an understanding between the Chinese and Tibetans, he will not at all hold any political position. I know that our Chinese friends continue to mislead people by using terms like “You know that the Dalai Lama wants to actually rule one-fourth of China”, or “You know that the Dalai Lama actually wants to replace the present socialist system in Tibet by imposing the exiled Tibetan government”.

Those things are totally baseless. In fact, you will know, as many of you have met His Holiness personally, he has made formal statements making very clear that he is not seeking any political position. In fact, he will not only not seek but he will refuse categorically to accept any political position once the issue has been resolved.

He made it also very clear that once agreement has been reached, he will voluntarily dissolve the Tibetan government in exile, because on that day the purpose of the government will have been fulfilled. He said he set it up not to challenge the Chinese but to fight for the rights of the Tibetan people. If that has succeeded, then he will himself voluntarily wind up the government in exile. At that time, only one government will be the Tibetan government. It will be one government, where the Tibetans will have their say. That will be the best—

As I said, in a nutshell this is our position. I can assure you all that from our side we will vigorously pursue this with all sincerity, because we believe it is our moral responsibility to the Tibetan people. But also, we believe that ultimately it is an important thing for China.

I want to conclude by saying that I would like you to convey to the Chinese that they must not fail to seize this opportunity. It is only when His Holiness the Dalai Lama is there leading the struggle that they have the historic opportunity to be able to conclude this in a way that will benefit everyone.

If they feel it is to their advantage to leave it unresolved, I can assure you that will be the biggest blunder. If His Holiness is not there, there's no doubt for us, the Tibetan people, that it will be a tragic situation. I can also tell you that our bitterness and our sorrows will not go away, but will become multiplied, and at that time there will not be anyone with the moral authority to keep the Tibetan people non-violent.

Today we feel very proud that on the plateau of Tibet, in spite of so much suffering, there is hardly any violence. That is not because of the ruthlessness of the Chinese authorities; it is because of the Tibetan people's deep reverence to their leader. It is because of his advice that, in spite of all these decades of untold suffering, we feel so proud of our Tibetan Buddhist tradition of really being able to remain non-violent.

Also, the other reason is because no one, except maybe people who are not sensible, will resort to doing anything stupid if there's hope. As long as there's His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan people will always have hope. Because of that hope, they will also not indulge in anything that can cause suffering to themselves or suffering to others. When that hope is gone, then I know maybe many people will reconcile to the situation, but not everyone will reconcile. And honourable members, you know that you need only a handful of people to create situations that in the end will become a gigantic problem.

So I just want to again ask that collectively, individually, you convey this to the Chinese, because none of the Chinese leaders have personally met His Holiness. Many of you have met His Holiness. You know His Holiness far better than the Chinese leaders in Beijing. Again, if you can, convey to them—this is not begging—that for the good of China they should seize this opportunity of reaching out to His Holiness the Dalai Lama for the common good of everyone.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you, Mr. Gyari. Thank you very much.

We shall now go to questions.

Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

I want to get some clarification in relation to your negotiations. You said you're going to the sixth round soon. I want to know whether the Strasbourg peace plan that His Holiness put forward back in 1998, with a five-point plan, is the fundamental five-point plan you're still going forward with in your rounds of discussions.

[Lodi Gyari]

I'm very glad you asked that question, because this is a question my Chinese counterparts also ask us.

The five-point peace proposal, and most importantly, also His Holiness's speech to the European Parliament, certainly does form the basis of his philosophy of a middle-way approach. But if you ask whether, for us, the Strasbourg proposal especially is the basis of our dialogue in its totality from our side, the answer is no, but it reflects the whole philosophy of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. For example, I think he asks there what it is that people are asking.

We made it clear to the Chinese that these two documents themselves need not necessarily be the agenda for the discussions. But, yes, the basic philosophy of this middle-way approach is definitely articulated in these two important documents.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Given that the United Nations Human Rights Commission is now the council—the new council that has been formed recently—and member countries like China will have to provide reports, all of us will be interested to see what those reports will be on the issue of Tibet, and will comments be allowed from His Holiness as well, on some of those reports.

[Lodi Gyari]

Of course, the UN is a very respectable organ. In the early 1960s, we ourselves went to the UN for refuge and we have three resolutions from that august body. Unfortunately, in the last couple of decades, such important institutions as the United Nations have been too dominated by a few nations. For example, many of us do not even have the possibility of setting foot in some UN premises.

But you specifically asked us about the human rights commission. Both my colleague Tashi and I have spent.... At one time, it used to be our yearly pilgrimage to go to Geneva with the hope of raising our issues. But we have to be very frank: we've not totally given up, but we have a little bit, because we've found that while there are a lot of very decent people, as an institution it is totally dominated by the permanent members of the Security Council. At the end of the day, in the UN system everything is decided not by the sovereign nations, who are quite proud to be members, but by just five nations, and they have their turf already settled global-wise.

So at the moment, to be very frank, we do not spend much of our energy and resources knocking at the door of the UN.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

There are those who have made comments and observations that what's happening within Tibet amounts to cultural genocide, that there is a systematic program by the Chinese government to annihilate the culture and the traditions and the language of Tibet. And particularly with the massive movement of people from mainland China, do you have any statistics of what the numbers might be in terms of the population ratio right now in Tibet? What may be happening--I don't know if it's underground--to continue to maintain the culture and tradition of the Tibetan people?

[Lodi Gyari]

I'm sure my colleague will also add to that.

First of all, using the word “genocide” with regard to Tibet was not something we coined ourselves. In the early 1960s the prestigious Geneva-based International Commission of Jurists conducted a very thorough investigation with many legal luminaries and also a large number of people from Asia. They came to the conclusion in their report--I think it is “The Question of Tibet and the Rule of Law”--that yes, indeed, cultural genocide has been committed in Tibet. Obviously, those are issues such as language, such as our culture. So we base our remarks on the findings of this prestigious global institution.

One of the real threats to survival of the Tibetan identity is the demographic invasion. Our Chinese friends, of course, will deny that. In our discussions, also, they in fact always confront us with their figures to prove that the Tibetans are more than the majority in all the Tibetan areas, but the reality is.... Today, just look at our holiest city of Lhasa, which is not only the political capital but is the centre of Tibetan civilization. The only landmark of Lhasa is the Potala Palace, which fortunately still stands majestically, and then a small part of sort of a Tibetan ghetto, which is now there around Jokhang. Other than that, if you don't look up in the skyline and see the Potala, you don't even know that you are in Tibet. You could be anywhere, in any part of China.

I know from talking to many westerners who go to Tibet that Tibetans come to westerners, foreigners, in their own capital city asking for directions, because even the directions of where to go to some places are in the Chinese language. This is the major concern we have. If we become a minority in our own country, which we are becoming, there is not a possibility for us, in terms of having a distinctive personality, and that's why we always make it an important issue when talking about having some limitations on the ongoing demographic invasion of Tibet.

The Chinese do have the mechanisms. Look at Hong Kong. Even though in Hong Kong no one disputes that this is part of a sovereign China, not every Chinese citizen is free to walk into Hong Kong. No. There is almost a strict.... Maybe it is even more difficult. It is much easier for many of us who have a Canadian passport or an American passport or a European passport to come to Hong Kong than it is for citizens of China. It is quite a daunting task. Similarly, if the Chinese government has the political will, and they are willing, they could create some kind of mechanism so that there is no indiscriminate flow of non-Tibetans to the plateau of Tibet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I'm sorry, we'll have to hold it there.

Before we proceed with the next round of questions, I just wanted to advise those waiting to present on the Cuban issue that we'll be starting that segment about 15 minutes late, because our committee started 15 minutes late. I'd ask all of our questioners and our witnesses to try to be brief so we can give everybody, at least each party, a chance for a question.

Ms. St-Hilaire.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming here today. It is a pleasure to hear from you. It is also very interesting. I have always been confident that you would succeed. If Tibet has succeeded to get that much international support, it is probably because your movement is non-violent. In the Province of Quebec we also want to do things in a democratic and peaceful manner. You are also proceeding in a peaceful manner and it is probably why you get that much sympathy even though, as you told us this morning, you are still very far from reaching your goals.

Mr. Gyari, I think, has spoken about the role of the Canadian Parliament. Could you tell the Sub-committee how specifically Parliament could help you in your quest?

[Lodi Gyari]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I wanted to mention that specifically here in Canada, as elsewhere, it was always the parliamentarians who actually took the first step in understanding our plight. The governments sometimes came a little reluctantly on board and sometimes not at all. We just wanted to express our gratitude.

We believe there are definitely a number of concrete ways that Parliament as a whole, and specifically this particular committee, can help. Parliament as a whole, we believe, can help either unanimously or with a consensus of Parliament in being supportive of His Holiness and really recognizing that in his effort to find a solution he has gone to the maximum. I know you've haven't done this in the past, but in the current situation.... I'm sure in each country you have a different sort of system of how you do it. I think it is very important that it be acknowledged, not because he as a person needs to have it acknowledged, but because we as a people need it. It's also going to be important in our negotiations.

We would also like you to express your support for some of the key things we have been struggling for--for example, our right to the highest form of regional autonomy. Again, from Canada's experience I think you have the right people to say that they deserve it. They are a distinct people and as such should have the highest form of internal governance.

Another thing is with regard to the area I talked about earlier. The Chinese government says that the Dalai Lama's urge to have all Tibetans under one administrative area is totally unacceptable because it was not the case historically and so forth. We would like you to point out that it is absolutely legitimate because we are one people. Even according to the Chinese Constitution, we are one nationality. They call us the Tibetan nationality. Obviously we are one nationality living on the same plateau. We are not scattered. We are not saying one portion lives 500 miles to the east, nor do we have a situation, as the British did when they left Pakistan having created East Pakistan and West Pakistan, which didn't work in the end. We are all on the same plateau in the contiguous area. We would like you to express your support on this.

Then there is, as I said, the whole bilingualism aspect of it. Parliament could express its support for it, and, constructively, offer the Chinese and Tibetans your experience. This committee alone could think about a visit to Tibet. We know that other parliamentarians from Europe, for example, dealing with human rights issues have conducted on-the-spot visits to investigate the situation and then have reported back to their colleagues and shared their findings. This would not be meant as a way to embarrass the Chinese, but simply as a way to help find the situation there by bridging the gap.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

You mentioned dialogue, but I can see certain things behind what you are saying. There have been discussions and negotiations, but do you really believe that it is the key? Do you hope that it will be the solution? If not, would there be another approach? You are talking of a sixth round, but have you seen any concrete results in Tibet?

As concerns Canada's aid to Tibet, I suppose that it goes through China. Does humanitarian aid from Canada reach Tibet?

[Lodi Gyari]

With regard to the sixth round of talks, I think what I said is that it is crucial, because in the last five rounds, somehow we have been able to identify our differences. As far as we're concerned, we are now committed from the sixth round to start making efforts to overcome those differences towards a common understanding. But we have no illusions at all that we will be able to get our differences in one or two rounds. Unfortunately this is going to be a fairly long process. In fact if both sides are serious, it's natural that it will take time.

Are we hopeful? I am hopeful. In fact, I always say that the moment I feel this is totally hopeless, it is my moral responsibility to resign from my position, because of my respect and the responsibility that I have for His Holiness, my leader, and because for me to continue to be head of an important effort if I don't really believe in the philosophy of his middle-way approach and in the possibility of this becoming a reality—

Having said that, why do I hope? Absolutely not because of the behaviour or the position of my counterparts at the present moment. I have a hope in this because of my understanding of the sincere commitment of my leader, His Holiness. So if you hear that I am no longer heading this, it certainly means that as an individual I have lost my confidence. This does not mean that the dialogues will be broken, because His Holiness is committed. He wants to resolve this through dialogue, because non-violence is through dialogue. Someone else, maybe with more hope, will take on from that.

The last question is important. Yes, first we do understand that the bulk of Canadian taxpayers' money does go to China, and we are beginning to understand that a bit of it seems to sort of trickle down to Tibet. That is very much appreciated, because we have a different position from some other international organizations. I don't want to name names, because you know that there are some international freedom movements with political leaders who deliberately allow their people to suffer, to remain in very pathetic conditions—let's say, the bitterness is in their mind—so that they continue to resist, and also to make their opinions look bad to the whole world, in order to say, “Look, this is what we have been reduced to”.

Our approach has always been totally different, because we should not play with the livelihood of our own people. Therefore while we are negotiating, while the Chinese will not allow us to have any access to Tibet to do anything—not even to set up a little school directly by His Holiness—we have always urged and pleaded with international agencies, governments, and even individuals to say whatever you could to help our people, because the real marginalization is happening inside Tibet, and our whole negotiation is about stopping that marginalization.

If we say don't do that because we are talking, then I think we are being hypocrites and not being faithful to our own people.

So we would like to encourage—but we wanted to ask through you, the Canadian government, and through your federally funded institutions—that it's important for them to consult with us. They can consult us in the corridor, they can consult us in the coffee shops, it doesn't matter. But if you really want to help Tibetans, don't listen to the Chinese government in Beijing.

It's very important that you consult with us. Also, it is our hope that at least some of this aid will start going through NGOs, because the bilateral is not only with China. With many countries, when it's bilateral, a lot of that money doesn't really trickle down to the recipients, unfortunately, in much of the third world. Maybe this is not a politically correct word, but in the future we would like substantial funding to go through NGOs, which are accountable—NGOs whose books will be audited and whose activities could be questioned by people such as you and us.

So this is our hope, and we also hope to be able to share these things with people in government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

That's very useful testimony.

We'll pass now to Mr. Sorenson.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you.

I certainly want to thank both of you for appearing before our committee today. I guess when we have people come to appear as witnesses before a committee, there are a couple of different reasons why we might have them. First of all, as a committee we want to understand the situation; we want to be educated on a certain subject; we want to know what's going on in your area of expertise and to get your experiences and to learn from them. But the other objective is to move us to do something. Certainly as a committee we want to understand and learn, but we also want to be provoked to action. I guess that would be one of my questions. What action would you want to see us take? You've already mentioned in response to Madame St-Hilaire's question that engagement by parliamentarians has been fairly positive. That is the driver of this thing primarily; governments sometimes go a little slower, or are hesitant and reluctant.

So what specifics would you like to see happen here in this committee? Canada does have somewhat of an historical relationship with the exiled leaders and the power they represent. But when we think about what's happening in Tibet and with the Buddhists, there are some countries that.... Maybe I'm wrong in assuming this, but I think India, for example, because of its proximity, has been very active on issues with Tibet. So I want more clarification as to what they do compared with what we do. The United States has come out very strongly on Tibetan Buddhist issues and on humanitarian violations with China and them. Some European countries—

We've done certain things; we've made the Dalai Lama an honorary citizen of the country. It's provoked discussion; some think it's been positive, but others think, what were we thinking when we did it? Those are the various opinions in the country, and maybe even in Parliament. But what specifically can the Canadian government do, in comparison with the actions other countries are taking?

I have one other question. You say that in your dialogue with China, you don't want to lead an independence movement; you don't want to do that; you want to preserve your culture, your language, and all those kinds of things. But you also say you would like some kind of local autonomy, some kind of local government there. What would that government look like? Would it be a government chosen by your religious leader? Would it have some principles of democracy? Would it be a bright light of democracy in a dark area? What would it look like?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

There are lot of questions there.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Yes, and I have two more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Oh, you're joking. You don't have two more?

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

No, no, go ahead.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

We only have three and a half minutes left in this round.

[Lodi Gyari]

Thank you very much.

Again, we would like to take this opportunity to express our gratitude to India. You mentioned that. I think quite often people don't understand, but the fact today is that the Tibetan identity is alive and thriving because we have been able to take refuge in India. The Indian people and the Indian government have given the maximum opportunity not only for us to survive, but really for our Tibetan culture to thrive.

Similarly, you also mentioned the United States. Yes, it is a fact today that both the Congress of the United States and even the administration no doubt have taken the most important interest and the lead with regard to Tibet. And this is deeply appreciated by us. But at the same time, it is our hope that others will also join, because the Chinese also have a very unique relationship with the United States. When this becomes the issue that is always being pushed by the United States--and we are very grateful for that--it really gives the Chinese also the opportunity to view this as if this is driven not by the urge or the suffering of the Tibetan people, but because there is a special agenda.

It is for these kinds of reasons that we have always hoped that a country like Canada, which has a different kind of relationship.... Of course your relations with China are very, very new compared with our relation with China, which is centuries old. Yours just began in the seventies. But even before you even had diplomatic relations, you had an interest in the relations.

What we would like to see is maybe more cooperation, for example, with the EU. We are trying our best to make the European Union take more interest. The European Parliament, as you know, is one of the most supportive organizations. Maybe as parliamentarians, selectively by yourselves but also in collaboration with other parliamentarians you can help.

Coming specifically to what kind of help, yes, we are certainly not only asking for certain kinds of individual rights, such being able to speak Tibetan, but we are definitely also asking for--which is guaranteed in the Chinese constitution--our Tibetan autonomous government. Will that government be nominated by religious leaders? Absolutely not. In fact we have already separated the church and the state. His Holiness himself has, in spite of very strong opposition from some of our Tibetan parliamentarians.... We have a very thriving small group of parliamentarians. In fact, twice they voted against His Holiness because they somehow feel that the Tibetan state must have a unique relationship with Tibetan Buddhism, and His Holiness absolutely said no. Times have changed. It is both healthy for the church as well as for the state that there will be no relation between them, so they are totally separated.

What we are looking for is a government that will be a government, hopefully, elected by the Tibetans themselves. In fact His Holiness has no intention of nominating anyone. It will be entirely for the Tibetans to democratically set up a government of their choice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I'm sorry, we're way over time, so I'll have to pass to Mr. Marston.