Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sitting here listening to your description of the Dalai Lama's middle-of-the road approach and when you consider that 1.2 million have died, it certainly speaks well of the total philosophy within your country, and particularly of the Dalai Lama.

To the chair, I don't think we should underestimate the request or suggestion we heard earlier about a motion of support for the position of the Dalai Lama. There are certain subtleties that have to come into play, and I appreciate listening here to the messaging that came through on that.

We've spoken in this committee in regard to the fact that the Olympics are going to occur in China and that this may open some doors. To be brief and to the point, China, to say the least, does not have a commendable human rights record. When you consider what happens in Tibet, to the Falun Gong, and in our case we have a Canadian, Mr. Celil, over there, it is of grave concern to us.

When I think in terms of Hong Kong and Taiwan and the fact that they have a fragile relationship with this government now, perhaps that's the best you can truly hope for. It's almost a rhetorical question.

[Lodi Gyari]

Again, I think you say it is for the Canadians to uphold your principles. Absolutely. Certainly democracy and freedom are your principles, so it is for Canada to uplift that. We do believe that, yes, democracy in the end is going to be the most important vehicle of change in China. But people are reluctant. People feel that with China you can't even talk about a democracy, because if you do that it is going to ruin your relations with China.

I think some of us have a better understanding of China than, with all respect, many of the self-styled China specialists that I've seen in my years of working on this issue. They go for a quick trip to China and come back and write a book and the next thing you know so-and-so has become a China expert. We are experts by compulsion. We didn't become experts academically, but because for us it is a life-and-death kind of issue.

China is changing and China is ready to change. I think there are millions of people in China today who would actually like China to become more free and democratic. I will not be surprised--in fact I think we can say with certainty there are even those in the leadership who believe that for China to really become a prosperous and strong, important nation, she must also politically change. It's not enough to economically adopt the western, whether it's good or bad--some think it's very decadent; some think it is wonderful. But what China has so far taken is the economic system. Totally, it has restricted itself. But if you keep on pushing it, I think there will be a surprising response, even from the section of the leadership who understands that in China's interest even the economic success cannot survive unless there is ultimately a political liberalization.

But it is not for us to preach. I think it is for a great nation like yours to uphold, and not to trade everything. Trading is a wonderful thing, but certain things, in our view, should not be treated as commodities to be sold. These principles, I think, must be preserved.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Very briefly, when you raised the issue of the United Nations, very clearly your last comment on trade is the actual fact of the interference of the United Nations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Perhaps I could put one question of my own, before we close.

Our Parliament and the Government of Canada received criticism, both internally and from China, for having made the symbolic gesture of granting honorary citizenship to the Dalai Lama, as was mentioned. Some have argued that this sort of thing is a provocation and counter-productive. Would you care to comment on that critique of these kinds of symbolic gestures of solidarity?

[Lodi Gyari]

Yes. I'm not surprised that you heard such comments. First of all, as a Tibetan, I can tell you that your gesture has sent a very strong message of hope. Again, I think each time that you make such a gesture, you are actually contributing to the stability and the peace on the plight of Tibet. Hope. You are telling Tibetan people, “Don't resort to other methods; keep on the track, because there are people who still respect a non-violent approach. There are still a lot of decent people out there in the world who care about some of these issues of principle.”

At the end of the day, I can assure you that this has also sent a positive message to the Chinese. It is important for them to understand that it is more important for them to engage with the person who really has so much admiration and is loved and respected by so many millions of people than to send the message that says we'll close our eyes--do whatever you want to do in places like Tibet.

In conclusion, as a Tibetan, not as His Holiness's special envoy but as a Tibetan, I really want to say we felt a deep sense of gratitude. I have spoken with some Tibetans who have come out of Tibet. That is most important, because those of us who live in freedom have other ways of getting oxygen for our struggle. But Tibetans who live day and night under the Chinese brutal system need a bit of reassurance; they need a message of hope. And by awarding His Holiness this great honour, you have sent to the millions of people who live under Chinese communist rule a message of hope. I really wanted to thank you for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you. That's encouraging to hear. Thank you both, Mr. Gyari and Mr. Wangdi.

We wish you a pleasant stay in Canada and everywhere in the world.

Thank you very much.

We'll now suspend for two minutes so that we can bring forward our witnesses on the next topic, Cuba. I ask that everybody move as quickly as possible so that we don't lose any time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I'd like to get back to business, because we are behind schedule, having been pushed back by the committee that previously occupied this room.

I'd like to call the committee back to order, as we proceed to our second item of business this morning, which is the reconsideration of this committee's examination of the human rights situation in Cuba.

Just for context, many of you may know or recall that this committee in a previous Parliament received evidence and began preparing a report on the Cuban human rights situation, but with particular respect to the 76 political prisoners. We as a committee have decided to pick up where we left off before dissolution of the previous Parliament. In doing so, we have invited before us some witnesses essentially to give us an update since our last hearings on Cuba.

We have before us, from the Canadian Foundation for the Americas, Christina Warren. As well, we have, from the Christian Labour Association of Canada, Brian Dijkema, and we have Ian De Waard, also from CLAC.

Please go ahead, and first is Ms. Warren.

[Christina Warren, Program Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)]

Thank you very much.

I'm very pleased to be here to provide the committee with a brief overview of the human rights situation in Cuba and to offer a couple of recommendations for Canada's policy towards Cuba.

Cuba is ruled by an undemocratic government that represses nearly all forms of political dissent. The Castro regime, now in its 47th year in power, shows no willingness to consider even minor movements towards any sort of political or economic opening. Fidel Castro's deteriorating health and his proclamation of July 31, when he delegated power until his recovery to his brother Raoul Castro and six other officials, reminds us that the possibility for profound change is on the horizon in Cuba. There are plans currently under way inside the island to ensure a smooth communist succession following the end of Fidel Castro's rule.

Given recent developments, it's appropriate to speculate about how a successor regime that Raoul Castro seems likely to dominate would fare. It's difficult to estimate how long he might last in power after Fidel dies, however, as the variables that will suddenly come into play at that time will be so complex and numerous that any predictions can be tenuous at best.

While the experts predict the likelihood of some sort of economic opening, it's not hard to also imagine a continuation of grave violations of civil and political rights under this scenario as the revolutionary regime seeks to maintain its political monopoly amidst the likely stepped up activism by Cuba's determined domestic opposition in pursuit of its agenda towards a non-violent transition to democracy.

At present, Cuba's government continues to enforce political conformity using criminal prosecutions, long-term and short-term detentions, mob harassment, police warning, surveillance, house arrest, travel restrictions, and politically motivated dismissals from employment. The end result is that Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law. Cuba's legal and institutional structures are at the root of rights violations on the island, and Cuba's criminal code provides the legal basis for the repression of dissent. The mass media, both print and electronic, are under Communist Party control.

In a July 2005 report, the Cuban Commission of Human Rights and National Reconciliation, a respected local human rights group, reported the existence of 306 prisoners incarcerated for political reasons. Of the 75 political dissidents, independent journalists, and human rights advocates who were summarily tried in the harsh crackdown by the government that took place in April 2003, over 60 remain imprisoned, serving sentences that average nearly 20 years.

In addition to these profound political restrictions, Cubans also face significant economic restrictions. A determined campaign by Fidel Castro has been under way to roll back the timid economic reforms he felt obligated to allow in the early 1990s after the Soviet Union, the island's partner and patron, collapsed. In response to this crisis, Castro opened up the door to foreign investment and allowed Cubans to set up small private businesses. Cuba's highly restricted self-employment sector, however, has increasingly been squeezed out as the Castro government moves away from market-based mechanisms.

At their peak in the mid-1990s there were 240,000 licensed entrepreneurs running home-based restaurants and cafés, working as handymen and beauticians. Their number has now dropped to 140,000. This move away from market-based approaches is facilitated by a very lucrative economic alliance with Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's president, who provides cheap oil in exchange for Cuban expertise in areas such as health and security, and soft loans from China. Thanks to these relationships, earlier this year Mr. Castro formally declared the post-Soviet economic crisis over.

Despite Castro's pronouncements of the end of Cuba's economic crisis and the government's continued allocation of significant resources to Cuba's extensive system of social benefits, in various recent studies from inside the island sociologists and economists describe a Caribbean society with rising poverty and growing class and regional inequalities, inequitable access to public services and economic opportunities, and a re-stratification of a society along racial and gender lines.

They have described problems facing Cuba's social services, including a deteriorated system of health care and education, reduction in pension coverage and the real value of pensions, as well as a steady increase in the housing deficit due to the very low rate of housing construction and the destruction of part of the existing supply due to lack of maintenance.

The rate of poverty in Havana, defined as individuals lacking sufficient income to cover basic food requirements and essential services, was conservatively estimated to be 20% of the city's population during the 2001 to 2003 period.

The growth of poverty and inequality in Cuba contradicts the government's official discourse of equality and social solidarity and is contributing to a mounting questioning of the Cuban model as well as widespread demoralization inside the island. These factors, coupled with Fidel Castro's imminent death, open the door to a new period in Cuban history.

It is the view of the Canadian Foundation for the Americas that Canada should renew and retool its policy towards Cuba at this critical juncture in order to more actively and effectively impede the consolidation of a communist succession in Cuba and lay the groundwork for a best-case scenario for change on the island based on peaceful democratization led from within the island, economic prosperity, sustainable social development, and reconciliation among Cubans.

In doing so, Canada should explore how it could work more cooperatively and strategically with other key members of the international community, including the United States, to achieve these goals. While a sole reliance on heavy-handed pressures for change is likely to backfire, respectful yet firm suggestions for a democratic opening and respect for human rights accompanied by a promise of generous economic aid and technical assistance linked to a genuine political opening once Fidel Castro departs from the scene are likely to help. That is, the right balance of carrots and sticks should be applied in order to create the appropriate incentives for incremental movement towards positive political and economic change and genuine dialogue.

A key lever of influence will be to create the conditions so that political change is seen as an opportunity to improve living conditions for the majority.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you very much, Ms. Warren, for that very pertinent testimony.

We'll now move to the Christian Labour Association of Canada. I'm not sure which of you is going to present, but go ahead.

[Brian Dijkema, Ontario Solidarity Organizer, CLAC Solidarity, Christian Labour Association of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, members of the committee, for having us. It's a pleasure to be here again. As the chair mentioned earlier, this is our third meeting with this committee, or a version thereof, and we're happy to be here again.

One of the things mentioned when we first came was CLAC's concern with nine members of an independent union in Cuba called the CUTC, Consejo Unitario de Trabajadores Cubanos, essentially Cuban independent workers. Nine of those were in jail.

This presentation will go through the facts of our involvement in the human rights situation in Cuba. We will look briefly at Canada's involvement with Cuba, and coming out of the previous two meetings we will offer some suggestions that will hopefully be concrete enough for this committee to recommend to the House or to the powers that be that we re-examine and hopefully change Canada's policy towards Cuba.

To start with, the situation on human rights in Cuba has not improved since our last meeting in November. The wave of repression that happened in March and April of 2003, in which 75 Cubans were arrested for such things as being involved in a trade union and being involved in independent newspapers and the like, continues. As Christina mentioned, 60 still remain in prison, and there have been more arrests since that time.

Among those arrested at that time, as we mentioned, were the members from the CUTC. They are being faced with not only arrests and short trials that lasted two days without any independent counsel and without foreign diplomats or reporters being allowed to witness them, but they're also being kept in prisons that are often very far away from their family members and their colleagues, making visitation and communication difficult. These prison conditions and all the difficulties have been recognized and deplored by the United Nations, Amnesty International, and a number of other groups. Essentially what we're saying here is that the case of the CUTC is but one example of the deplorable situation in human rights in Cuba.

There are further things beyond just individual rights. The rights of workers in Cuba, which we're obviously very concerned about as well, are also not recognized. Independent trade unions are simply not allowed. In fact, Amnesty International has suggested that any independent organizations apart from those sponsored by the state are barred from having legal status. We are very concerned about that. Cubans who are working and disagree with the government often find themselves dismissed or demoted from their jobs and unable to find work; work in Cuba can only be found through state employment agencies, and these employment agencies--as has been mentioned by the Canadian government in its guide for doing business in Cuba--are paid $500 a month by the company operating in Cuba, while the employee receives $25. That's 5%.

Canada has been operating for a long period of time now with a policy of constructive engagement. The point of this policy is to export Canadian values, including respect for human rights, to Cuba, and of course it's also for the mutual benefit that comes with trade.

This part of the presentation will very quickly go through Canada's relationship with Cuba and then come to our suggestions.

Right now, in 2005, we have a $1 billion trade relationship with Cuba. It puts us as the second-largest export country and the sixth-largest source of imports with Cuba. We rank behind, as Christina mentioned also, Venezuela and countries such as China. It was interesting to be here this morning to follow the report on China. Canada is also one of two leading donor countries for Cuba--along with Spain, we are one of the top two. Our projects in Cuba deal with modernization of the state; that's modernization of tax administration and infrastructure programs. Also, moneys are dedicated towards participatory development.

It's interesting to note here that $8 million goes towards things that are dedicated towards modernization of the state. That involves tax infrastructure, information infrastructure, etc., while participatory development, which is supposed to be focused at NGOs in Cuba, ranks under $1 million, and it's unclear whether those moneys are continuing since 2003. CIDA does not have information on that, and we're not able to access it.

Their goals, interestingly, are food security and participatory development solutions through popular education and pilot projects, with greater collaboration between Canadian and Cuban NGOs. The difficulty, of course, is that Cuban NGOs, as has been stated by Amnesty International and other groups, simply are not allowed to exist. They're not legally allowed to exist.

The fact that Canada has continued to engage with Cuba despite these repressions in 2003 has led some people.... For instance, at our last meeting, the Honourable Ed Broadbent called the policy of Canada a “euphemism”--I'm quoting him here--hiding the reality that “there is a complete absence of civil and political rights in Cuba”.

CLAC believes that statement to be true. The fact is that since 2003, since this repression happened, there's been a 65% increase in trade with Cuba: a 65% increase in trade. There has been one public statement by a government official, by Mr. Pettigrew, and that wasn't even picked up by any of the major newspapers.

Essentially what we're saying here is that the Canadian policy towards Cuba, if compared with Cuba's respect for human rights in terms of the political and institutional situation in that country, is in fact a euphemism, and it's becoming increasingly embarrassing. We're hoping that this committee will begin to work towards a policy that will do a better job in that regard.

We have a number of suggestions. Now, a concern or question that came out of our last meetings was on whether or not the Christian Labour Association of Canada was going to make policy suggestions. We do have some here. If I may, I will go through them briefly, just so this committee has something on its plate to chew on and to hopefully take forward in its report.

First of all, we're looking for some sort of public statement on the fact that there are still 60 prisoners of conscience in jail. We would like the Canadian government to do more than simply put one small media release or conversation in Reuters. We want them to be regularly using diplomatic and other channels to pressure the Cuban government for the release of these people and for the recognition of independent organizations, such as trade unions, in Cuba.

One of the difficulties with Canada's policy of constructive engagement is that there are simply no measures by which we can determine whether or not our policy is effective. There are no metrics by which we can say our engagement is in fact constructive. We believe it to be the case that we are engaging, as I mentioned earlier, with no understanding of whether or not that is doing what we hope it will do--that is, increase respect for human rights and strengthen civil society, good government, and justice in the country of Cuba.

One of our suggestions is that the committee work with different department officials, etc., to create an objective set of measures that are publicly known so that Canadians involved in and interested in Cuba will be able to hold the government, and our policy, accountable in that regard.

The third suggestion we have is for a benchmark on the amount of civil and political rights violations we're willing to tolerate before we alter our policy. Again, the difficulty here is that we are working with constructive engagement, yet we have no idea how many violations of human rights are needed in Cuba before Canada begins to alter its policy. At CLAC we believe that 75 violations, and that the continued violations, are far too many. We would like to see a lower benchmark, and we would like to see Canada act on that.

We would also like to see a refocused investment in Cuba. Interestingly, the investment done by CIDA is focused on modernization of the state and social development. That primarily focuses on schooling and medical care. Very little, as we've mentioned, goes towards Cuban NGOs. In fact, I would offer that Cuban NGOs don't exist, so no money goes to them.

We are hoping for a complete refocusing of Canadian aid dollars. Right now, our money is going towards Cuban projects that in effect--at the United Nations, in its media releases, and so on--blunt or soften criticisms of its human rights violations for trade unionists and individuals. What happens is we invest heavily into their social development--health, education, etc.--and that in turn is used by the Cuban government to say “Things are actually quite fine here, and we've made progress in these types of rights”, and the rights of individuals and communities and organizations that are attempting to foster dialogue and democratic renewal or democracy in Cuba go unheard or unmentioned.

Finally, Canada has a series of programs of exchange with Cubans--the Cuban government, Cuban officials, lawyers, etc. We would like to see the Canadian government have non-governmental dissident groups, including the CUTC and other such individuals and groups, come to Canada. We should not be exchanging with a government that is ignoring the rights of its citizens and regularly violating the rights of organizations to exist.

With that, Mr. Chairman and members, I would like to conclude.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you very much, and you're right on time.

I would like a point of clarification before we begin with questions. You said there were 60 political prisoners in Cuba. Did you mean there are 60 of the group of 75 still in jail?

[Brian Dijkema]

Yes, that's true.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Presumably there are other political prisoners, in addition to those people.

[Brian Dijkema]

Yes, there have been more since 2005, in fact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

All right.

Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

As you mentioned, Canada's policy, which is for constructive engagement, is supposed to include, in that engagement, respect for human rights through economic and cultural development engagements. Now, that particular policy direction is sometimes—and I think that's what I heard from you—in conflict with our objectives, with the moneys that we're putting forward with CIDA. If the CIDA programs focus on two priorities, which is the modernizing of government and local development, as you've stated in your presentation, sometimes that is used by the government, in fact, to state that things are going relatively well.

How do we refocus the programs? How do we in fact make sure that on the issue of program development and work by CIDA that in fact it is meeting those objectives of human rights and that it becomes very much a priority?

[Brian Dijkema]

Is that directed at me?

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

It could be to you, yes.

[Brian Dijkema]

Well, the difficulty is that right now there are no independent NGOs in Cuba. If we want to know whether our policy is working in that regard, I think Canada has to take a leading role, like it did with China. It needs to recognize the dissidents and it needs to publicly do that in such a way as to support them. If the Cuban government is unwilling to tolerate our support of independent organizations like the CUTC, then the government also will need to think about what it will do in response to that.

The difficult situation is that right now it seems as if none of the cards are held by the Canadian government. We're involved in a relationship with Cuba and we are not able to exert our influence on where that money goes. It says it goes to NGOs, but they're not legally recognized in Cuba. So what we would offer as a solution to that--and obviously it's a very difficult point to take--is we need to begin recognizing, as a nation, independent organizations like the CUTC, to begin with. That would be the place to start.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I assume you're stating that our programs have not been working in meeting their objectives specifically in the area of human rights. Finding out what the best approach is is also difficult because the United States' approach, for example, which has been to isolate Cuba, has also been quite detrimental to the allowing of civil societies and the growth of democracy there, as well. That approach does not work. It seems that our approach is not working. What is the best approach, really, to get human rights respected in that country?

[Christina Warren]

I agree with you: nothing works. That's the problem.

Clearly, though, there is historic change about to happen in Cuba. Will it be in a few months? Will it be in a year or the next couple of years? One doesn't know. One has been hearing for quite a while that Fidel Castro is ill and aging and about to depart from the scene, but it is actually happening.

Canada is limited in what it can do right now, given the context on the ground in Cuba. I do agree that just out of principle, it should assert its democratic principles more forcefully and explain to the Cubans in a respectful way that there are other models out there, including ours here in Canada, which are not the American model, but democratic, capitalist systems that are also socially progressive. That is what the Cubans actually aspire to; however, here it's economically viable.

Definitely, one should assert oneself at this stage, but one should be very realistic that it's limited in terms of the kind of change that one could influence right now while Fidel Castro is at the helm.

We should be doing a lot of preparatory work at this stage to be planning for the big change that is about to happen and try to influence that change in a positive direction. A key recommendation I would make to do that would be to try to come up with some sort of concerted strategy with the international community. One idea would be to put together a golden carrot to influence potential reformers on the island to take the steps we would like them to take.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

Some of the basic questions that I wanted to ask have been answered, but maybe I'll speak about the judicial system there and how it operates. You have a situation, as has been reported, where about 75 political dissidents have been arrested since the spring of 2003. How do they go to the court system? How does the judicial system operate there and how can we maybe get some influence over the judiciary? I guess what I am trying to get at is, if we're going to be engaging them, should we not try to see if we can help them also? If we're going to reform the tax system, why not try also to reform their judicial system?

[Christina Warren]

I'm very pessimistic as to what kinds of real reforms would be taken at present in the judicial system; I'm not sure what could be done, and I don't think it would be a lot. We could play a more effective role just by helping to publicize the existence of those dissidents to help legitimize their agenda.

I don't know if Brian has a comment.

[Brian Dijkema]

In my conversations with government officials, if I'm not mistaken, there have been some judicial exchanges where judges from Cuba have come to Canada to observe how our system works. The hope, of course, is that their experience would be brought back to Cuba and influence the way the legal system works there. That's an honourable and worthy goal, and I do hope it is met. The difficulty, of course, is that the case of the 75 and of those arrested since that time does not exactly indicate that those exchanges have been successful, in that there were one or two-day trials without representation by recognized lawyers and without any sort of public scrutiny.

These exchanges have been taking place, which is why we have suggested that if Canada is going to continue in this policy there is a wide continuum of what it can do, all the way from an American-style embargo, or worse, to complete engagement with Cuba without any criticism.

If there are no benchmarks by which we can measure our effectiveness.... For instance, if we're not willing to suggest as a benchmark the opening of trials to the public or the representation of offenders by recognized lawyers, or even charges being laid against them, we have no basis on which to either continue those exchanges with judges and lawyers or to let them go.

[Le président, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I shall now give the floor to Ms. Bourgeois from the Bloc Québécois. Welcome to our Committee, Madam.