Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you.

With the committee's agreement, I'll take the first government round, as my colleagues, because of other responsibilities, came in late.

Mr. Elliott, you mentioned the terrible tragedy and scandal--really the crime, not tragedy--that occurred in the 1990s in China with respect to the blood collection system. I've just read a book in part about these terrible crimes. Do we have any idea, quantifiably, how many people were infected with HIV or have died as a consequence of this gross neglect and incompetence?

[Richard Elliott]

It's hard to come by exact figures. The estimates of the number of people who've been infected will range from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands. As some committee members may know, these government schemes for blood collection and sale were almost the most efficient way imaginable to massively and quickly transmit HIV through the population, with, in some cases, entire villages providing blood donations. The plasma was then removed from the donations, the remaining material pooled, and then reinjected into people in order to help prevent anemia and to make sure that people could donate more frequently. As I say, a more efficient way of spreading HIV could not be imagined.

It is precisely because of efforts to bring to light some of what has happened--and in some cases, there was apparent government official involvement, often at the local level, in those schemes--that some of the human rights defenders whom I've mentioned have been detained and harassed in the past.

It's somewhere in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands--

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

My understanding is that the villages that were almost systematically infected were then turned into basically quarantine colonies--hopeless, desolate places where people had virtually no medical care. Is that your understanding?

[Richard Elliott]

Certainly we have reports of people who have been infected who have been seeking care who have been denied that care, and in some cases, for trying to demand that care have been subject to police brutality. It is difficult for me to say now just how extensive that is, but certainly there are repeated reports of it. As you know, information can sometimes be hard to come by. It may be that my colleagues from Human Rights Watch also have some information they want to offer, because they have documented some of these things in China.

[Mickey Spiegel]

There's not a lot to add, really, to what you've said, other than the fact that there was an excellent series of articles done by The New York Times reporter, Elisabeth Rosenthal. She actually broke the issue initially, and it's worth looking at. If you want to follow that up, it's worth going back and looking at their archives for those issues.

One of the things that we have been campaigning for is that the officials who were involved in some of those early schemes have not only not been--

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

One has been promoted to the Politburo, I understand--the governor of the province where most of this happened.

[Mickey Spiegel]

Yes, right. You have the information. It's still a big issue, and a big issue, of course, is care for the people who are ill now and for children who also were infected, not necessarily by getting blood.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Could I pursue with anybody, perhaps Mr. Elliott, a related question? In some countries, the lack of care, discrimination against HIV-infected patients, is sometimes related to discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and the stigma attached to the disease. Is this at all the case in China? Certainly we know in the Mao regime there was discrimination against gays and lesbians. Is that in any respect still the case? Is there evidence of that kind of discrimination?

[Richard Elliott]

Yes, and I mentioned in my remarks a number of the groups that have been particularly subject to stigmatization and in some cases criminalization and harassment. That includes gay rights activists, sex workers, and people who use drugs. While there is an emerging gay community in China, which has always obviously been there but is now starting to emerge into the light as part of civil society proper--certainly that is more the case in some larger urban centres--it is still the case that there is considerable infringement of freedom of expression in some cases for discussion of gay rights, for example, in China. Certainly doing the work of HIV prevention among gay men in China is hindered by police action sometimes, often at the local level.

There's an interesting disconnect, it seems, going on--well, a number of disconnects going on in China--and one of them is that on one hand, at the central government level, there is some progress that's been made in actually trying to put in place protections against discrimination related to HIV, not protections necessarily for discrimination based on sexual orientation. They're not there yet. On the other hand, that policy directive at the national government level doesn't necessarily always translate down to what happens at the local government level. Obviously, when you have people who are speaking up for gay rights, who are speaking up for access to treatment for people who were infected, whether it was through blood collection schemes or not, local government officials see that as a challenge, particularly if they may have had some connection to the blood schemes, and then they have a considerable incentive to crack down on any dissent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you.

Ms. Durante, you mentioned the interesting idea of having a Canadian consular presence in Tibet. Are there any other democratic countries that have such a consular presence, as a precedent?

[Luisa Durante]

I'm not aware of any in the Tibet Autonomous Region or the Tibetan Plateau. But in the Tibetan Plateau it's even more difficult to have an actual consular presence, whereas the TAR is somewhat supervised. There is somewhat of a platform set up for it to actually happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I'm going to ask Mr. Benedict a specific question, and then I'll ask a general one for the panel, to make sure I'm on time. I have to be consistent as the timekeeper.

Mr. Benedict, does the CLC or any other group track the labour practices of Canadian-operated or -owned companies, or Canadian contractors in the PRC? For instance, I've read that a lot of the peasant riots have happened because of expropriation of property to build, among other things, coal-fired power plants. A Canadian company is one of the major builders of coal-fired power plants in China. I'm curious to know if you or any of the NGOs can help us track to what extent Canadian companies, directly or indirectly, are responsible for the violation of basic rights.

My more general question is for everyone on engagement with DFAIT. I picked up just a hint of cynicism here about the ongoing consultations that DFAIT has with NGOs on this issue. I have a briefing note here from the Foreign Affairs ministry. Following Professor Burton's report, they've been consulting the NGO community to improve the effectiveness of the dialogue. Do you think these consultations have ever achieved any concrete results?

Those are my questions. The first is to Mr. Benedict and the second is general.

[Stephen Benedict]

If I may, I'll comment on both briefly.

The Canadian Labour Congress, together with some Canadian NGOs, try their best to track the activities of Canadian corporations in China. There are also international organizations of trade unions on a sectoral basis, and a number of those track. For example, in the mining sector there is an international organization of trade unions that tracks companies. There is one for metal workers. A number of these international sectoral organizations of global union federations have committees that monitor and discuss policies on China and monitor the activities of multinational corporations. I'd be happy to provide more information.

On the other point, you're correct in detecting cynicism. In fairness to the people in the human rights division of Foreign Affairs, they eventually gave in to our pressure to start a review of the dialogue and accepted to have Professor Burton produce a report on the situation. It was a welcome thing and a good first step.

On the suggestion that it somehow constitutes consultation, my simple answer is no. The coalition will now need to pursue the issue, not only with Foreign Affairs but with others, to see what happens to the report and how we can now begin to develop a better process for dialogue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Anyone else?

[Mickey Spiegel]

I think you've said it all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Ms. Durante.

[Luisa Durante]

I have a few comments. One is about Canadian companies working in China. The Canada-Tibet Committee has been doing some research trying to track and monitor Canadian companies working in Tibetan territories, such as the Canadian companies involved in the railway and the Canadian mining companies that wish to operate in Tibet or are already operating in Tibet.

We also work in consultation with a number of other Tibet support groups around the world that are also monitoring. So that information could also be made available on the likelihood of human rights violations, or what types of implications there could for human rights violations in Tibetan territory itself.

On DFAIT and the consultations, CTC in a number of ways, not necessarily with DFAIT.... On some of the recommendations I've made, Tibet hasn't necessarily been at the heart of some of these bilateral dialogues. Minority rights have been discussed in some of the dialogues and in others they haven't. Tibet is considered to be an ethnic minority under the PRC. So we would like to see DFAIT actually take more consideration of Tibet as a separate entity in some ways in the bilateral dialogue and strengthen that within the bilateral dialogue itself.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

You'll have to wrap it up there.

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

This opened up a wealth of questions and thoughts, but to begin with, it seems like we're hearing a consensus that there should be a suspension of the dialogue, that it requires the participation of NGOs, unions, and others. I think the Berne group process was referred to as well.

Number one, would you see that happening in Canada? Would you see this committee participating in it?

Number two, you may or may not be aware that at the last meeting, I made the suggestion that perhaps the dialogue should report directly to this committee, and that there would be a transparency as a result.

Another thing I'll throw out is, does anyone see value in a parliamentary delegation going to China or Tibet to investigate?

Now the next area I'm going to go into is a little way from where we've been speaking so far today. I was just looking at a report from BBC News that HIV/AIDS cases jumped 30%. They figure that there are in the area of 10 million women working in brothels as sex trade workers there.

For us, Canada has always been seen as a protector of human rights for gays and lesbians, but I'm hearing an unease these days, and this is more reflective of here in Canada. If we're going to start being critical of China's history, then we had better look at our own, at how we treat our sex workers and the fact that they are criminalized.

Another point is that safe injection sites for drug use are something we need across the country, as well as within our prisons, because the prison population is also involved.

So I'll throw those things out there, and if anybody would like to respond, I'd be pleased.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Ms. Spiegel.

[Mickey Spiegel]

First, Canada is part of the Berne process. I don't know quite on what level it happens in China; it happens in Canada. But, yes, they are part of that, and, yes, I definitely think this group should have the oversight and reporting back, which you're talking about.

In terms of a parliamentary delegation going to China, if that's something you would like to do for your own edification, fine. If you think you're going to accomplish anything in terms of human rights, that's another story. It depends on where you all are in terms of your own education, and so on. But you need to do your homework, you need to get briefings from all the people who need to give you briefings, and you need to know what you're looking at and partly how to read it. I think that's very important.

You brought up something else that you might want to consider. You mentioned sex workers and problems in Canada. They're probably all over the world. Maybe that's something that needs to be thought about more in terms of dialogue—that there really would be dialogues and this kind of exchange of information, in terms of the kinds of problems you have and how you're coping with them—opening it up that way, so there really is an exchange of ways of working. In one of the seminars associated with the dialogues, which I attended, that really did happen; it opened up the issue and made it much easier to talk about what the problems were in China. So I think that in bringing this up, you're bringing up a bigger issue.

Can I go back to boycotts for a minute?

My response is, forget about them. It's over; it's done with. It's a big issue; it's going to be. It's much more important at this point to use the fact that there will be world attention on the Chinese government, and on China in general, in 2008, and to use this to bring up some of the human rights and other issues, which you want to bring up—labour issues among them, and I'd like to talk to you about that later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Go ahead, Mr. Benedict.

[Stephen Benedict]

Very briefly, as I mentioned, we believe that the dialogue should report to and come under the purview of this committee. I believe this is why we elect parliamentarians, to represent us in all aspects of these issues. This raises the question, for example, of the Berne group process meeting that is taking place. Is someone reporting to you about what is happening?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I'm a little more than marginally involved in Chinese human rights questions, and I just learned about it today from you.

[Stephen Benedict]

There is a question that is indeed legitimate. It would seem to me that parliamentarians from the countries of the Berne group should be talking to one another, because my guess is if it's happening here, it's most likely happening in the Australian Parliament, in the U.S. Congress, and in a number of other countries likewise, which is why, at the trade union level we wanted to begin a debate amongst trade unions from the countries of the Berne group.

There's another point, which is, of course, that all of this requires support. This is, it seems to me, where the Canadian International Development Agency comes into play as well. We talked about the whole of government approach, and then we focus only on one little part of it.

I presume CIDA will be appearing in front of this committee and talking about some of the work it is doing and some of the work it intends to do in the coming years. I do think they need to be challenged, indeed, with some of these questions.

As a matter of fact, we have a little project, not CIDA-funded but funded by the Canadian Labour Congress, with workers in Guangdong province. I'd love at some point to give you more information about this lovely little project that we are doing on workers' rights in China.