Evidence of meeting #6 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Deputy Director, Policy Unit, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network
Thank you.
I have three brief points. One, I wanted to note for the record that we have appreciated the interventions of Foreign Affairs officials, those working within the human rights division, on specific cases of AIDS activists who have been detained in the past, including the one I mentioned, Dr. Wan Yanhai.
I think the problem here is that the dialogue, structurally, is limited, and that's why we've made the kinds of recommendations we have. This is not necessarily an attempt to say Foreign Affairs has not been doing its job, but there's a broader discussion that needs to happen, and that needs to involve parliamentarians.
The second thing I wanted to say was that to follow up on Mr. Marston's question, I think it's absolutely critical that Canada have the credibility it needs going into discussions with China about human rights. We are very concerned on the domestic front that we not backslide on commitments to gay rights, that we not backslide on actually taking innovative and even established and proven harm reduction measures to deal with HIV among injection drug users. This includes, for example, having the safe injection site in Vancouver, of which we need more, where having them would be suitable.
We certainly need to look at the issue of the criminalization of sex workers under Canadian law. I understand there is a parliamentary subcommittee looking at this issue, which will be reporting back next month. I think parliamentarians certainly need to take seriously that as long as we criminalize these populations, we make it harder to actually address the HIV epidemic, and we expose them to greater risks of human rights violations.
Fortunately, we do not have forced detention in so-called rehabilitation camps for sex workers in Canada--let's hope we never see that day--but we certainly have work to do to better protect the human rights of sex workers in Canada. I think if we do that, we show that we act in good faith when we go to China and say we have the following human rights concerns, and by the way, we are taking action within our own borders to address them. This is the link that we see to HIV as a public health issue, and between that and human rights.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
We're out of time. Sorry. We'll come back in the next round.
I turn the floor over to Ms. Boucher.
November 28th, 2006 / 12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Good morning. Thank you for being here. This is the first time I've had the chance to take part in this committee, and I find it very interesting.
Since I don't know everything about what you discussed earlier, I'd like to have your opinion on the elements that should be part of a Canadian policy on improving human rights in China. Should such a policy be part of a broader promotional strategy for democratic development in China?
National Director, International Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Should I take a stab at that?
This is an important question that covers a lot of ground. I think there are key elements. We're talking about the government strategy and the various elements that develop different parts. I mentioned that there are round tables on corporate and social responsibility. Sometimes, we unfortunately lack consistency, even among our own groups in civil society. For example, they aren't here with us, before your committee. Following these round tables, they'll be making recommendations to the prime minister. How do you link these things together? That's always a challenge.
However, some things areclear and simple for us. We think we must have not only the texts of acts, but also a practical implementation of those acts. Ensuring that that's the case requires significant and constant follow-up. The principles of transparency and respect for Canadian values must be at the basis of any Canadian policy. We're entirely in favour of that.
Rights don't exist in a void; they exist in practice and in everyday life. At the Labour Congress, we think that talking about rights without talking about development is pointless, both for workers in China and for workers in Canada. The idea then is to see how we could combine the two to serve sustainable development based on the fundamental principles of Canadian values.
Deputy Director, Policy Unit, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network
If I could highlight the point I made earlier, if we only look at this as a foreign policy dialogue, then we're going to miss the boat. I think Mr. Benedict's remarks are quite appropriate in that regard. This is why we highlighted that we need to actually support civil society in China, to raise human rights issues.
There is a critical role for CIDA in this. CIDA has begun to fund some human rights-related work on HIV, which is helping to develop a civil society in China on those critical issues. I can't speak to other aspects of civil society because I'm not familiar with them. But it seems to me, that is the necessary complement to raising, in a foreign policy dialogue, these human rights issues. It's only if you actually support the development of civil society that you're going to see the emergence of a democratic path to development in China.
National Coordinator, Canada-Tibet Committee
I want to add a brief word to emphasize that, if we talk about a beneficial foreign policy, we also have to talk about beneficial economic development. The two go together. We're talking about having a policy on international trade. We aren't opposed to economic development in Tibet, but we want it to be truly beneficial for Tibetans. Measures will have to be put in place to ensure that the Tibetan people receive the benefits of this kind of project. That should form an integral part of Canada's foreign policy toward China and Tibet.
Conservative
Liberal
Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Canada's doctrine of engagement and isolation is really in some ways based on a cold war paradigm. How do you isolate a country that has tentacles in just about every country in the world?
Its influence becomes more and more pronounced, of course, if you look at international fronts. What raises even further alarm bells is its incredible behaviour in Darfur, as was mentioned. It's in Burma, in North Korea, and in Sudan. The list keeps on going.
I also mentioned this once in committee, and I think the Canadian Labour Congress may want to take a look at this issue. It is also starting to export its incredibly appalling labour practices into other countries, such as Angola. For example, they have major projects to build airports and roads, but they're not using the local population, which is in terrible need of jobs. They're bringing in slave workers from China, putting them in camps, and having them work 24-hour shifts. We have no idea whether they are being paid or not. All we know is they're going to build these particular roads and airports for the price of oil.
There is an appalling situation of the exploitation of workers throughout the world, particularly in third world countries or developing countries, to do these massive projects.
The whole idea of having to engage in Canada is kind of stupid. Why even talk about it? We know we can't isolate this country. It's totally ridiculous.
Let's go on to something else and take another step. I think the step that needs to be taken, and I think I've heard this from some of the speakers, is on the whole thing about engaging civil society. It also means basically whatever little civil society there might be in China, and it means the tools that we have, such as CIDA--and CIDA, can play a role as well in the nurturing of that civil society. It also means collectively working with NGOs in Canada and throughout the world.
Finally, I think it's also about engaging like-minded nations so that we can have a coherent strategy with European partners and with the Americans to figure out how we can collectively raise these issues of China. Of course, the Chinese are very good at somehow linking any type of condemnation of the regime to a condemnation of the society.
For all of us who know a little about history, we realize and recognize that China is an incredible civilization, spanning thousands of years of history. It's a very rich and very advanced civilization. We're very grateful for its contribution to humanity. That's not the issue. The Communist regime, and that line in history, is really only a little blip in the continuous history of the Chinese people.
They're very good at saying we're attacking the Chinese people every time we make a criticism, which is totally false. They have serious violations.
It's unfortunate sometimes that when we raise this, we are then criticized. The Prime Minister was recently criticized about his stand in China. But I think most of us understand that if he hadn't raised these issues, when would there be an opportunity to do so? I'm not defending the government, but I think there is also merit in saying you have to raise these issues at these international forums, because if you don't raise them, you'll miss an opportunity.
I have no solution as to how to deal with a mighty superpower such as China and how to constructively deal with human rights violations, but I think we all have to work together. I'm not sure there's another way out of this.
Maybe we can stop talking about engaging or isolating China. We can engage them, of course, but isolation is impossible. We might as well drop that notion.
I'd like to hear from the panel, if they want to comment on my statements.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
That was a very artful management of time by an experienced MP who took his entire allotment. We're technically out of time, but we'll allow you to respond, because Mr. Silva has made some very pressing points.
Senior Researcher for China, Human Rights Watch
I don't think anybody was talking about isolating China, but I think what's really important is that China has joined a lot of world bodies. They're part of the UN system, and they've joined WTO. The rules need to be the same in terms of human rights. They need to be held to the same set of rules, the same set of international laws, and the same set of humanitarian laws that apply to all countries.
One thing we didn't talk about today, and I'm sorry I didn't bring it up earlier, is on the whole legal system and what could be done in terms of advancing some of those goals.
For instance, helping China work toward ratifying the international covenant on economic, civil, and political rights, and therefore changing their domestic law and meeting international standards, is one of the kinds of things that can certainly be done over and above some of the more discrete issues we've talked about.
Thank you.
National Director, International Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Very briefly, because the congress is not exactly known for supporting or saying a lot of nice things about this government either, but when—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
There's a saying that you're more credible when you criticize if you occasionally offer support.
National Director, International Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Indeed. The raising of the case of Mr. Celil makes total sense to us, and it should be done forcefully. There's certainly no argument there.
Our concern has been more on a policy being made--how shall I say--on the fly with regard to human rights. But you raise a very interesting point with regard to China and what it is doing in other parts of the world. After stadiums have been built in umpteen African countries, there is the beginning of a backlash. Recently in Zambia, the interference, or certainly the perceived interference, by the Chinese authorities in the Zambian elections created a huge backlash. So there is a very fundamental issue, and there is a beginning also of a reaction. At the International Labour Organization, this reaction translated itself last year in the All-China Federation of Trade Unions not being elected to the governing body of the ILO, which was certainly perceived as a major setback.
National Coordinator, Canada-Tibet Committee
Just very briefly, there are a few things.
One thing we're doing in the Canada-Tibet Committee is trying to constantly apply pressure on China before the Olympics. We're not saying to boycott the Olympics, but we are saying we have to do whatever we can on an international level before and after to try to pressure China as much as possible to improve its human rights record. Another thing that's important, too, is that we don't have to go far. If we look in Tibet, there is the question of labour conditions. There's also the question of how the Tibetans generally are treated in terms of the projects—Canadian money, investments, etc. So we don't have to go far to see within what is known as the so-called “Chinese territories” cases of human rights violations in that circumstance.
The other thing, too, is using the UN instruments. Canada has signed on to a number of UN instruments that we could use to apply pressure on them that are particular in upholding the whole question of international human rights law. It's very important. I think those are tools that we can use more to our advantage, since they are a part of the UN Human Rights Council--tools that we should be using more to our advantage, actually, to pressure China to take more concrete action on human rights in general.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
We have to go to other business. Are there any other urgent questions?
I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for your very thoughtful, well-researched, and I think very prescient presentations to us today. They will be very helpful in our deliberations as we lead to a report. Thank you very much.
We're going to suspend for two minutes while our witnesses and guests leave, and then move in camera for committee business.
[Proceedings continue in camera]