Evidence of meeting #15 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I would like to call the meeting to order once again. We are now in public session.
We have with us today four witnesses who are appearing as part of our study on the situation of Nathalie Morin.
I believe you have four short presentations to make. I encourage you to be as brief as possible, as we do not have much time. Please begin.
Marie-Ève Adam Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
First of all, on behalf of Nathalie Morin's Support Committee, I would like to thank members of the Sub-Committee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development for agreeing to hear from us today. I would like to briefly introduce the four people who are here today, and we will each be speaking after that.
First of all, Nathalie Morin's Support Committee was founded in December of 2009 to assist Ms. Johanne Durocher, Nathalie's mother, with her fight to bring her daughter and grandchildren back to Canada. The Committee is a non-profit, citizen-based organization which represents individuals but has the support of many women's groups, members of Parliament and citizens.
We will begin our presentation with opening comments from Ms. Durocher, who is Nathalie's mother and is the President of the Support Committee. She will briefly talk about Nathalie's and her children's living conditions since 2005. She will also describe the actions or inaction of the government, the Canadian Embassy in Riyad and consular services in Ottawa.
For today's presentation, we asked Mr. Stéphane Beaulac, a professor at the Law Faculty of the University of Montreal, to be with us, in order to address the international mechanisms which allow a government to intervene in a foreign country, particularly as regards consular cases. Professor Beaulac teaches international public law and human rights interpretation.
Ms. Christelle Bogosta, who is also a member of the Support Committee and is a graduate of the University of Montreal in community health, will talk about the effects of the abuse and deprivation that Nathalie and her children have been suffering for several years now on their physical and psychological health.
I, too, am a member of the Support Committee and am an assistant to the member of Parliament for La Pointe-de-l'Île, Ms. Francine Lalonde. We have been supporting Ms. Durocher's efforts since April of 2008. As a result of that, we have had a number of exchanges with Minister Lawrence Cannon and with Foreign Affairs here in Ottawa. We also met with the Saudi Arabian Ambassador, Mr. Osamah Al Sanosi Ahmad on May 3rd. I will be addressing that in my comments.
I would like to turn it over now to Ms. Durocher. Thank you.
Johanne Durocher Committee Chair and Mother of Nathalie, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
Good afternoon.
My name is Johanne Durocher, and I am the mother of Nathalie Morin and grandmother of Samir, Abdullah and Sara. Since December of 2005, my daughter has been detained in Saudi Arabia, where she has been subject to domestic violence, abuse and forcible confinement by a violent spouse. My three grandchildren have also been abused. Although Nathalie has asked repeatedly, in the last five years, that the Canadian government repatriate herself and her children, the Department of Foreign Affairs does not take the situation seriously. It claims that this is a private matter and is not doing everything it could to negotiate her and the children's repatriation with Saudi Arabia.
My daughter Nathalie's story is a simple one. Had these events occurred in Canada, they would not have given rise to any media coverage. In 2001, Nathalie met Saeed Al Shahrani in Quebec, when she was 17 years of age. Soon after that, Nathalie became pregnant with his child. They were never married. They were not living together. Nathalie gave birth to Samir Morin. One month later, Saeed had to leave Canada to go back to his native country, Saudi Arabia. The couple continued their relationship at a distance from 2002 to 2005. Nathalie planned to start a family with him. What could be more normal?
During that period, Nathalie travelled with their son to Saudi Arabia on two occasions. In 2005, when she returned to Saudi Arabia a third time, he began to abuse her. He beat her and, from that point on, began to threaten her. He demanded that she find a way to help him emigrate to Canada, and if she refused, he threatened to keep her in Saudi Arabia against her will, with his son Samir. Those threats became reality.
Since 2005, my daughter Nathalie, has been forcibly confined by a violent spouse in Saudi Arabia. The violence is getting worse, as is her distress. He beats her, harasses her, wakes her up in the middle of the night to prevent her from sleeping and compels her to have unwanted sexual relations. In other words, he sexually assaults her; as a result, Nathalie became pregnant again. In fact, under compulsion, he gave her two more children. He mistreats the children, bites them, whips them with electric cables, burns them and tries to crush their hands and feet. Nathalie and the children are deprived of food, human contact, affection and support. They have become the hostages of Mr. Al Shahrani.
Since January of 2008, Nathalie and her children have been forcibly confined in Mr. Al Shahrani's apartment—in other words, locked in a room with the windows covered over with paper, so that light barely filters through, with no possibility of obtaining a key and no opportunity to communicate independently with the outside world, either by telephone or the Internet, and without visits or support.
Mr. Julius Grey, an eminent Canadian lawyer, described the situation as “civil detention”. During that time, Mr. Al Shahrani has made multiple requests for money and material goods: an apartment, a car, furniture, and so on, from the Saudi government, which was alerted to the situation. To save the country's honour, the Saudis have agreed to provide the material goods and money that he is taking full advantage of, even though Nathalie and the three children are poorly nourished. During certain periods, they were given only bread and water. Mr. Al Shahrani does not work. And yet he is receiving benefits from the Saudi government because he has a conjugal relationship with a Canadian woman and children who also have Canadian nationality and are asking to leave the country because of abuse.
My daughter and my grandchildren are therefore instruments by which Mr. Al Shahrani enriches himself, since he is able to ask his government for money and material goods, supposedly to improve his family's living conditions, even though Nathalie and the children derive little or no benefit.
Since December of 2005, my daughter Nathalie has been asking to be repatriated to Canada with her children. For five years now, I have bent all my energies towards removing them from that living hell. What have the Government of Canada and the Department of Foreign Affairs done to help my daughter and my grandchildren? In those five years, the Canadian government has either ignored or minimized the domestic violence, abuse and forcible confinement to which Nathalie and her children have been subjected. Furthermore, no serious effort has been made to try and shelter them from the violence and abuse they have suffered.
I might add that, on a number of occasions, the Canadian embassy refused to give shelter to Nathalie and her children at the embassy.
So, on January 4, 2006, Nathalie went to the Canadian embassy with her son, Samir. She asked to be repatriated, but the embassy official, Mr. Omer ElSouri, refused. He then encouraged Nathalie to write to ask that her file remain confidential and advised her at the time to wait until her second child had been born to return. In that regard, you have received documents prepared by the Department of Foreign Affairs. There are notes on the case dated January 30, 2006, January 28, 2006, as well as the letter in which Nathalie asks that her file be kept confidential, something she was advised to do by Mr. ElSouri.
You have in front of you the affidavit signed by Nathalie in 2009, when I visited her and which relates a number of other troubling facts. Two years later, she states, and I quote:
On November 14, 2008, Saeed was prepared to drive the children and me back to the embassy, so I could give birth there. Chuck Andeel, a consular official at the Canadian Embassy in Riyad, told me over the telephone not to come, as the embassy was unable to care for an eight-month pregnant woman. Nicolas Gauthier texted me a message to Saeed's cell phone, telling me to wait until I had recovered physically and psychologically before thinking of returning to Canada.
Do you realize that a Canadian official advised a Canadian citizen, who was subject to domestic violence and whose safety was in question, to give birth in Saudi Arabia, rather than repatriating her? Not only did that decision forced her to continue to live in dangerous conditions, but in so doing, she also diminished her chances of one day being repatriated with her children.
I would like to quote another passage from Nathalie's affidavit, which you have in front of you.
Saeed regularly slaps me in the face, kicks me and hits me on the head […]. He has repeatedly poked my eyes with his fingers, twisted my arm, twisted my thumb, beat me with his fist, threatened to kill me by holding a knife to my throat and beat me on my back. When I cry, he hits me. When I laugh, he hits me. When I talk, he hits me. When I get angry, he beats me.
Every day that passes finds me terribly worried. My daughter's safety is threatened. Her psychological and physical state, as well as that of the children, is deteriorating, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Lawrence Cannon, continues to see this as a private affair, thereby justifying shameful inaction on the part of the Canadian government, which refuses to repatriate them without delay. Not only is this unacceptable, it is inhumane.
This week, another young Canadian women, Nazia Quazi, who was forcibly confined and assaulted by her father in Saudi Arabia, was released after waiting for two years. My daughter has now been waiting five years. What is the Canadian government waiting for to remove my daughter and my three grandchildren from their torturer?
I am a citizen and a mother who is doing all she can to reassure her daughter that her country, Canada, will repatriate her. I cannot lose hope and abandon my daughter. I am asking the Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Lawrence Cannon, to stop turning a blind eye to this and to take action before the G20 Summit, by repatriating my daughter, Nathalie, and my three grandchildren, Samir, Abdullah and Sara. Thank you.
Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
Thank you. I will make my comments, and then turn it over to Mr. Stéphane Beaulac and Ms. Christelle Bogosta.
In support of the facts that I will be presenting, you have been given two translated documents that are in both languages. I also brought with me other documents that support the facts I will be presenting. Some are in English, and others in French, but they are not translated into both official languages. If the Committee would like to receive them, it will have to give its consent. I have made copies for everyone.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
The clerk can accept them and we can then have them translated into both official languages for Committee members.
Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
I was told that Committee members had to give their consent.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
It is not necessary for Committee members to give their unanimous consent just to accept documents that you will be providing to the clerk. However, for just distribution purposes, we would need the members' unanimous consent.
I can ask them now.
Is there consent to distribute these documents?
Conservative
Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
All right.
I would like to give you the background behind our intervention.
Once again, I am an assistant to the member of Parliament, Ms. Francine Lalonde.
The mother of Nathalie Morin, Ms. Johanne Durocher, contacted our office at the end of March, 2008. We have therefore been working on this case for almost two years now.
With the help of documents forwarded to us by Ms. Durocher, we quickly ascertained that Nathalie was not in fact married. Ms. Durocher had documents in Arabic that she had brought back from her first trip to Saudi Arabia in 2006. We had them translated, and realized that what was supposed to be their marriage certificate was actually a marriage confirmation certification referring to a marriage that had apparently taken place in Montreal in 2001. But Ms. Durocher told us categorically that Nathalie never married in Montreal in 2001. Furthermore, at the time, Nathalie was a minor; she was 17 years of age. She would have required her parents' permission in order to marry. Following an inquiry, the Office of the Registrar of Civil Status in Quebec confirmed that Nathalie had never married in Quebec.
We then discovered that, when Nathalie went to Saudi Arabia in 2003, the Saudi embassy in Ottawa had issued a spouse's visa and a visa for her son, Samir, in the name of the father, Al Bishi—to avoid any confusion, I just want to mention that, at the time, his name was Al Bishi, and that he changed his name to Al Shahrani as soon as he returned to Saudi Arabia—when, in actual fact, no father was named on Samir's Quebec birth certificate. His name was Morin, like his mother.
Armed with this new information, we contacted officials at the Department of Foreign Affairs to tell them that there had been a mistake, that Nathalie was not married and that she should therefore not be subject to decisions made by Mr. Saeed Al Bishi regarding her return to Canada with her children. Foreign Affairs officials told us, however, that whatever her actual status, the Saudis consider them to be married. As a result, we had to abide by their laws and, in this case, the husband's permission was required. We were also told to keep this information to ourselves, because in Saudi Arabia, that meant that Nathalie was living illegally and could potentially be put in prison. As a result, we kept this information to ourselves for a number of months, even though that did not prevent us from continuing to pressure the Canadian government to negotiate their return with Saudi authorities, as we had received serious allegations of mistreatment, forcible confinement and abuse inflicted on Nathalie and her children.
The events I am about to relate here were first reported to me by Ms. Durocher. Following that, Nathalie related them in a similar fashion, but in greater detail, in the affidavit that Mr. Julius Grey asked her to write in the summer of 2009—you will find this in the documents you have been given and which were translated into both official languages. The two versions say exactly the same thing in each language. Then, following an access to information request that I filed with the Department of Foreign Affairs, I received almost 2,000 pages of notes on the case, corroborating Nathalie's and her mother's version of events, although presenting the issues from the standpoint of the government. I would like to relate some of those events now, with supporting documents, hoping that you will agree to receive them.
I would now like to discuss what happened in January of 2006. First of all, I should mention, once again, that Nathalie went to Saudi Arabia in March of 2005 with the intention of living there. In December of 2005, when Nathalie was pregnant with her second child, her mother went to visit her and saw that her daughter had been beaten and mistreated by Mr. Al Shahrani—he even beat her in front of Ms. Durocher. They filed a complaint with the Canadian embassy in Riyad.
At the embassy, Mr. ElSouri told Ms. Durocher to call him back two days later and that he would find a way to get Nathalie and Samir back to Canada. When Ms. Durocher called back on the day in question--
Conservative
Marie-Ève Adam Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
When Ms. Durocher called back on the day in question, Mr. ElSouri had left on vacation for two weeks. So, Ms. Durocher had no choice but to return to Canada alone, without her daughter. On January 23, 2006, among the papers was a report written by Mr. ElSouri entitled “Change of travel plans”, in which he stated that Nathalie and Saeed had come to an agreement and that Nathalie had accepted the idea of giving birth in Saudi Arabia. He added that Nathalie was in control of her life, that she was able to get along with her husband and that she was sure she would be able to travel the following summer with her two children.
Five days later, on January 28, Mr. ElSouri forwarded to Ms. Lavigueur, in Ottawa, a letter written by Nathalie in which she asked Foreign Affairs to no longer discuss her case with her mother, saying that she was old enough to know what she was doing. However, in the affidavit written by Nathalie in July of 2009, of which you have a copy, she discusses this incident on page 2. She says that the letter was written in the presence of Mr. ElSouri, his wife and Saeed in a restaurant in Al Khobar. She states that they told her it would be better if her mother did not involve herself in her personal affairs. They convinced her to write that letter. They even told her to put a false date on the letter.
When we checked the embassy notes, we did, in fact, see that the date on the letter did not jibe with the date when Mr. ElSouri had reportedly met with Nathalie and Saeed. He states that he met with them on February 9, which suggests that Nathalie did not draft a letter in his presence. As a result of Nathalie's letter, Ms. Durocher was not able to involve herself in her daughter's case, and her daughter subsequently gave birth to Abdullah in Saudi Arabia in June, 2006. She was never able to return to Canada with her two boys after giving birth, as promised by Saeed.
After Abdullah was born, Nathalie became increasingly depressed. Her living conditions deteriorated and she was in poor health. Nathalie again gave her consent to disclose information to her mother in September. In October of 2006, Saeed agreed to take Nathalie to the embassy, but without the children. From there, consular officials organized her departure through Bahrain, a neighbouring country, and back to Montreal. Following her departure, there was an exchange of e-mails between Ottawa and the embassy. Here is an excerpt from an e-mail dated October 19:
When I last spoke with her just prior to her departure for Bahrain, I recommended she erase the past five years and become a 17-year-old again. She realizes she will miss the children but wants to get on with her life. If anybody is pushing for repatriation of the children, it is Johanne, not Nathalie. Once Nathalie gets a life in Montreal--and away from her mother--she might think again of having the children, but I don't think we will see it in the near future. ...Maybe we will get the kids to Canada to be with their high school-educated 22-year-old unemployed mother. Maybe--just maybe--the children are better off here.
Six weeks after her return to Canada, Nathalie got on a plane again, unbeknownst to her mother, to be with her children again in Saudi Arabia. She left a note on the kitchen table saying that she did not know whether she would ever be able to return to Canada, but that she was sacrificing herself for her children.
In June of 2008, Nathalie sent an e-mail to the Canadian embassy outlining her first complaint of mistreatment. In the days that followed, February 19, 2008, she sent similar complaints to several human rights organizations in Saudi Arabia. In June of 2008, the embassy organized a consular visit to Jubail to meet with Nathalie and Saeed. Nathalie was pregnant with her third child, as a result of unwanted and violent sexual relations forced on her by Saeed. In other words, she had been raped. Following that visit, we requested a copy of the report on several occasions. The only information that we had was through the Saudi media, which presented Saeed's side of the story. We finally received that report in the Foreign Affairs' notes we obtained through Access to Information in July of 2009, one year later. I invite you to read it. It speaks volumes about Nathalie and her children's living conditions.
This is one of several documents I would like to make available to you. It is written in English.
Despite our continuing to pressure the Department, so that Nathalie could return to Canada to give birth, Nathalie gave birth to her daughter, Sara, in Saudi Arabia on November 18, 2009. Three days before she gave birth, however, Saeed was prepared to take Nathalie and the children to the embassy in Riyad. Nathalie called the consular officer, Mr. Nicolas Gauthier, to ask him to receive them. We also wrote to Minister Cannon, asking him to intervene so that the embassy would provide shelter to Nathalie and her children while it negotiated their departure with Saudi authorities; but our efforts were in vain. Mr. Gauthier sent a text message to Nathalie saying that it would be better for her physical and psychological health, that she give birth in Saudi Arabia. Yet they had ample evidence of the mistreatment Saeed was inflicting on them. Nathalie recounted that episode on page 3 of her affidavit.
On December 22, 2008, Mr. Deepak Obhrai, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, went to Saudi Arabia and met with Nathalie and Saeed. There again, Foreign Affairs did not inform us of that visit. At that point, Ms. Durocher had had no contact with her daughter for several weeks. She was therefore unaware that her daughter had received this important visit by a Canadian official. We would only hear about it subsequently through the Saudi newspapers.
Ms. Durocher was told by Ms. Huda Alsunnari, counsel for the Saudi Arabian Human Rights Commission, who was present at the meeting, that Nathalie was crying and asked Mr. Obhrai that she be allowed to return to Canada with him, saying that her life was a living hell. Mr. Obhrai said that he knew about her circumstances and had come to try and find a solution with her husband. He then spoke to Saeed in English only. Later the Canadian media questioned Mr. Obhrai about that visit. In response to the question: “How was Nathalie when you met with her?”, he said: “Nothing stood out of concern to me”. In that regard, we refer you to the report of Mr. Obhrai's visit in the Foreign Affairs notes dated December 24, 2008 and Nathalie's account of what occurred on page 3 of her affidavit.
On September 22, 2009, embassy officials went to see Nathalie, at Saeed's request.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I think there was a break in the translation. I think those cameras are supposed to stay stationary as well.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Yes, that's okay. Actually, they can go on you when you're talking.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
But I believe there was a break in the translation. There was a comment that apparently was made by the parliamentary secretary, but it did not come through the translation, so could you just say that again?
Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
Do you mean the comment to the media?
Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee
I will tell you in English. The question from the journalist was, “How was Nathalie when you met with her?” The answer from Mr. Obhrai was, "Nothing stood out of concern to me".
On September 22, 2009, embassy officials went to see Nathalie at Saeed's request. Before they arrived, Saeed locked Nathalie and the children in a room, so that she could not be present for the meeting. We were made aware of that meeting by Saeed, who called me at the office to tell me he was prepared to let Nathalie and the children leave unconditionally, but that he first wanted to speak to people at the embassy.
The day after that meeting, Nathalie Tenorio-Roy, a case officer with Foreign Affairs in Ottawa, called Ms. Durocher. Ms. Durocher immediately sent me an e-mail recounting her conversation with the departmental officials—which I will be providing to you—and dated September 24, 2009. It says that Saeed asked for $300,000 U.S. in exchange for releasing Nathalie and the children. Furthermore, the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade refused to use that information, even though, in our opinion, that is clearly a ransom demand related to negotiating Nathalie's and the children's return to Canada with Saudi authorities.
It was only on October 22 that Ms. Tenorio-Roy put that information in written form—you can refer to the e-mail of October 22 in that regard. She added that the Department verified the legality of that demand in Saudi Arabia and that an article of the Sharia allows it. We asked to be given a copy of that article of Sharia law. This is a practice involving a refund of the dowry that was paid—something that a spouse can ask of her husband when she asks for a divorce. However, Nathalie was never married, she did not receive a dowry and, furthermore, she did not ask for a divorce because in Saudi Arabia, if she asked for a divorce, she would lose custody of her children when they reached the age of seven, and would no longer be able to take them out of the country.
In closing, I would just like to mention that Ms. Francine Lalonde, the member of Parliament for La Pointe-de-l'Île, and myself met with the Saudi Ambassador, Mr. Osamah Al Sanosi Ahmad at the Embassy of Saudi Arabia on May 3. He began by saying that he had met with the Canadian Ambassador in Riyad and together they had discussed the case of Nathalie Morin. He said that the Canadian Ambassador never told him that Nathalie had been beaten and forcibly confined by her spouse, nor that she wanted to return to Canada with her children. When we insisted, saying that there were multiple pieces of written evidence from Nathalie regarding her living conditions in Saudi Arabia, he finally said that if we forwarded the information to him, his government would take action.
I would now like to turn it over to Mr. Stéphane Beaulac.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Monsieur Beaulac--
We have a problem here, committee members, in that there are 20 minutes left in our proceedings and we're only partway through the testimony that we've received.
Even if we try to extend our time, we can only do it a little bit, because we're not in our usual place just down the hall from the House of Commons. It will be difficult for us to have both questions and the rest of the testimony, so I want to find out what the committee wants to do at this point.
May I have advice from the members?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Would you prefer to go to questions, or would you prefer to hear the rest of the testimony and not have questions?
I'll ask the first option--
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Maybe we should ask Dr. Beaulac how long his intervention is right now.
