Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 13th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Would that be the last one, or do we have Madame Bogosta?

[Stéphane Beaulac, Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Montreal]

I'll keep it down to five minutes.

[Christelle Bogosta, Committee Member, Nathalie Morin Support Committee]

I can speak very briefly. It will be three minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay, that leaves us with just 10 minutes. It leaves two minutes each for questions, essentially.

[Marie-Ève Adam]

I have a one- or two-minute conclusion, though.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay, that's what the committee's up against. I'm just asking your advice. I'm not going to tell you what to do; I'm going to find out what the committee wants to do.

Go ahead, Ms. Glover, please.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've heard a number of inconsistencies already with regard to the things being said and the things being provided in documentation by Marie-Ève Adam. I really do believe it's in the interest of this committee to proceed to questions immediately, because we need to clear up these inconsistencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay. I'll just ask.

Those who are in favour of going to questions now, please raise your hands.

Okay, that's the majority, so we're going to go to questions now.

We do this as always--Liberals, Bloc, New Democrats, Conservatives. We will start with Mr. Silva and we have five minutes each. We're supposed to be cutting this off at the end of five minutes each, but it means we're going to go a tiny bit past 2:00 p.m.

Okay, fire away.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you for your testimony.

I want you to know that I understand the way you feel and sympathize with your concern for your child and your grandchildren. We are well aware of the situation in Saudi Arabia when it comes to human rights: they are not respected.

You made your presentation and asked the government to intervene. I would simply like to ask you one thing. I believe that you asked several times that the Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs repatriate your daughter and do everything possible to help her. Thus far, what has the government's response been?

[Johanne Durocher]

The government is refusing to repatriate Nathalie and her children, saying that this is a family affair.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

If other people wish to comment or provide information that could help us, please feel free to do so.

[Stéphane Beaulac]

I would just like to briefly mention that, not so long ago, all family violence in Canada was deemed to be a private matter. However, we all know that in this country, it is no longer acceptable to think in those terms, and in my opinion, our reasoning should be exactly the same when Canadian women or men are subject to violence by a spouse in a foreign country. We should not allow facile excuses based on law to justify inaction.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Cotler, would you like to add something?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You mentioned that you filed a complaint with the United Nations Human Rights Commission. Have you received an answer from the Commission?

[Johanne Durocher]

I contacted Ms. Da Costa at the U.N. They agreed to open a case file and look into it. Of course, their actions are confidential.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You say you met with the ambassador. That probably happened here in Ottawa. He said that he had not received any information with respect to what you told him. Did you forward that information to him subsequently, and did the Canadian ambassador also communicate that information?

[Marie-Ève Adam]

No. We undertook to forward the information that we had to the ambassador. However, Nathalie filed written complaints—of which we have copies—with human rights authorities in Saudi Arabia. We know that Nathalie's complaints were even passed on to the Saudis. In any case, the ambassador related a conversation he had had with the Canadian ambassador. Ms. Lalonde contacted the former Canadian Ambassador, Mr. Davidson, who was well acquainted with the case. There is now a new ambassador, Mr. Chatterson. The Canadian ambassador and the Saudi ambassador took up their respective positions pretty well at the same time. Having said that, consular service officials at the embassy are well acquainted with the case. I received almost 2,000 pages of notes that had been exchanged by Foreign Affairs and the embassy. This is a huge case for them. Therefore, the Canadian ambassador would certainly have been aware of all the complaints made by Nathalie. He had been given the June, 2008 report in which Nathalie made her complaints directly to an embassy official and also put them in writing. I don't know whether the Saudi ambassador met with Mr. Davidson or Mr. Chatterson, because I am not sure exactly when their meeting occurred, but he should certainly have provided his successor with the information that Nathalie wanted to return to Canada and was being mistreated there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Dorion, please.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Mr. Chairman, it is highly regrettable, in my view, that the decision was made to open it up for questions right away, because Mr. Beaulac and Ms. Bogosta were unable to make a number of important points.

To compensate, I would like to ask the two of them—or one or the other, as they wish—whether there are any important points they would like to add to what has been said thus far.

[Christelle Bogosta]

I would like to add that as time goes by--this is the content of the presentation you have in both English and French--the psychological and physical effects for Nathalie and her children are only getting worse, and it really compromises the possibility of recovery.

The different elements are outlined in the document I have furnished to the members of this committee.

[Stéphane Beaulac]

I would like to make two brief points. The first is that, under international law, Canada can intervene in the Nathalie Morin case. Also, under Canadian law, and specifically the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, we know, as a result of several Supreme Court rulings, that Canada has a duty to act. That does not mean that it should just do the bare minimum or ensure there is a paper trail. The duty to act means protecting Canadians who find themselves in difficult circumstances in a foreign country. It is an obligation based on results, rather than means. Under the circumstances, and in the specific case of Nathalie Morin, that means the government should be asking for her repatriation—nothing less.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

My question is for Ms. Durocher or Ms. Adam.

First of all, Ms. Durocher, I feel tremendous compassion for your circumstances. This is a terrible tragedy you have been living through and it is very worrisome to see the Canadian government not defending one of its own citizens in circumstances such as these.

What could possibly have motivated an official like Mr. ElSouri? In practice, he seems to have constantly blocked your efforts to try and get your daughter out of Saudi Arabia. In your opinion, what would prompt someone to behave in that manner?

[Johanne Durocher]

I cannot possibly know the exact reason, except that Mr. ElSouri is not Canadian. He is a Sudanese married to a Saudi woman of Saudi culture, whereas we are Canadian.

So, when he explained to Nathalie that it would be better for the children to be raised in Saudi Arabia… That was really a reflection of his own culture. He may also have had contact; a lot of information found its way to Saeed. Did he have personal contact with Mr. Al Shahrani? I do not know, but that is possible. I cannot be certain of that, however.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have one minute left.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I had an opportunity—and I believe many people at this table did as well—to see a video made at Nathalie's house in Saudi Arabia.

Could you briefly explain how you were able to enter that house and make that video under the circumstances that we are all aware of?