Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 25th, 2010

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Definitely. Yes, in particular during demonstrations.

As you know, during the past few years there has been a lot of social unrest, demonstrations for various laws the home government proposes or things the government wants to change. During demonstrations, the clashes are between those who are pro-government and the opposition. Both parties use excessive force. We're calling for that to stop. Yes.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Recent media reports have stated that important government figures have quit—perhaps you remember the names, I forget them—people who were close to Chavez and have since left.

Did the human rights issue influence their decision?

[Guadalupe Marengo]

I don't know what part. I suppose you mean people like.... If I'm not mistaken, the minister for justice left, as well as various other ministers. A few generals have left during the past ten years. We haven't spoken to them directly. We don't know exactly their reasons for leaving. Again, as Amnesty International, we don't get into those considerations.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

The government obviously justifies its crackdown on some media by saying that they were not only critical, but also extremely aggressive, misleading, and so on.

Is there any truth to the government's accusations?

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Our reading of this is that licences are not extended or are withdrawn because of administrative issues or because they have expired; however, if you look at those 34 radio stations, for example, whose licences were withdrawn because of administrative reasons, all actually had an anti-government editorial line. So you would perceive the actual reason their licences were removed is their anti-government line. This is not only what we, Amnesty International, have said, but if you were to look at the reports of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights or at the reports of UN special rapporteurs on freedom of expression, of independence of the judiciary, they would also say that it appears to be because they have an anti-government line.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

We are aware of the close ties between the governments of Cuba and Venezuela. Do you think that has an influence on Venezuela's progress in terms of human rights?

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Again, Amnesty International has no position on that. The position we have is that human rights have to be protected. As you know, Amnesty International has problems with human rights violations in Cuba, but we also have problems in Mexico, where I come from, and in the rest of Latin America. That's our main concern.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Marengo.

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Merci, Monsieur Dorion.

Mr. Marston, you have eight minutes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Good afternoon.

I listened to your testimony in comparison to previous testimony we've heard at this committee, and we've had witnesses stating that Venezuela is hugely better off since this government came to power. They spoke particularly about the constitution. As they described it, people carried the constitution with them. It was something they discussed in public; it was a living document for them. And as a result, they felt empowered.

We've heard people talk today about the different levels, for lack of a better word, the class structure of that community, where the well-to-do may not be doing as well as they once were and those who weren't doing well are doing much better. That balancing isn't something I would particularly argue against.

There was one thing that struck me about the television station losing its licence. If you took any other country in Central America, or perhaps even Canada, if you had a television station that was part of leading a coup against the government, who would license it after that? A question that comes to my mind is that of the 34 administrative licences being blocked, were any of those involved with the coup?

[Guadalupe Marengo]

I don't know whether any of them were involved with the coup. But as I said, for the past eight months or so, it appears there is beginning to be a stronger line against those who are against the government. In 2007 we started with not extending the licence of Radio Caracas. The licence doesn't have to be extended, as you said; there's no law that says you have to extend the licence.

But with the 34 stations last year, if you put that together with those people who have been recently arrested, the judiciary has been used to detain and to punish them, and the evidence we have is that it's mainly for political reasons, you start to ask--and again, I think this is not only the position of Amnesty International, but the position of the special rapporteur in the Inter-American Commission on Freedom of Expression and also UN bodies--why these stations have been looked at. Is it because of their editorial line, or because administratively they were not doing things the right way?

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Well, most countries' response to some kind of a coup attempt is usually fairly harsh. I've not heard that evidence coming out yet, but there may well have been a deterioration as a result of that, or....

One of the things that was said here is that there was a disconnect between the government and the police, that to some extent the police were running on their own and the government hadn't reined them in as people wanted them to and that the police were almost as bad as some gangs in some countries.

Do you see that separation between government and the police in that regard? In other words, the government has the army and then the police are over here doing their own thing.

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Well, the fact is that the office of the public ministry has said that in the first seven years of this decade they have received 6,000 complaints of alleged killings by police. They haven't yet investigated that number of police killings, so something has to be done.

Also, it isn't clear whether there is the political will to send the clear message that police brutality is not going to be tolerated and that these alleged violations are going to be investigated. Time and again with the information on the cases we've received, and I've outlined them here, they are not investigated and nobody is brought to justice. It seems there is not the political will to put in the resources to ensure these things don't happen on the ground.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

As regards my question more directly, there is a separation between the police forces and the government. You're saying the government is failing to act as it should in order to control the police, but the police on their own hook over here seem to be functioning as an organization separate from the government. That's what I was looking at.

Again, witnesses here have told us that things are hugely better than what they were under the previous government. Would you agree with that statement? You've already listed primary health care and other things.

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Yes. Violence against women, health, education.... On the issue of social and economic rights, one can see from the various reports that have appeared, not only ours, but also that of the UN Development Programme, that there has been huge progress on those issues within the country.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

So then the real concern, from your perspective, is what we would call human rights violations. In that context, how would you say Venezuela, Colombia, and Bolivia would compare?

[Guadalupe Marengo]

Amnesty International doesn't compare. One human rights violation is enough.

There have been improvements in human rights, because social and economic rights are actually human rights. However, we continue to worry about the issue of impunity, which already existed before this administration, and the apparently increasing intolerance to criticism of the government. We are concerned with those isssues now, as well as with the implementation, for example, of a very good law regarding violence against women. However, more resources will have to be put towards that to actually advance on it.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

In Canada there are huge concerns about missing aboriginal women, and exactly the same case can be made here, that the resources haven't been put forward by our country. In fact, the UN review of Canada raised that particular issue.

I'm trying to put into context, relative to the area, whether the line is totally moving forward. You've indicated that in the last eight months you've had some significant concerns, and I share those concerns with you, but to my mind, things are comparative in the sense of those other countries. I know that any violation is an inequity, and it should be addressed.

We've just concluded a free trade agreement with Colombia. When you compare the dialogue and what's happening around Colombia and the various things we've heard about the state of government and the state of life in that country, and then you hear the comments that come out about Mr. Chavez and other people, and if you listen to CNN or some of the more mainstream American media, they really come down very hard on them. That's why I was searching out that comparison that I was asking for before.

[Guadalupe Marengo]

I think the comparison I would like to make, since we don't compare countries, is between what was happening in Venezuela 15 or 20 years ago and what is happening now with social and economic rights and other rights. Progress has definitely been made.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

That was perfectly timed: eight minutes and fourteen seconds.

Mr. Sweet, go ahead, please.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to try to tie down some things from some of the statements that were made. You opened your remarks by saying that 20 years ago things were the same as they are today. I think you were talking specifically about the crackdown on those who oppose the government and about impunity and so on. In that case, you're saying that not only was it the same 20 years ago as it is today—although we've had groups say it's much better—but that in the last few months it's gotten much more severe. Is that correct?

[Guadalupe Marengo]

I think maybe I wasn't specific or clear enough. The issue of impunity is something we've been worried about for many years in that country, as well as in the rest of the region, in Latin America. Impunity continues to be a concern. Human rights violations are rarely investigated; rarely are people brought to justice; rarely do the victims receive redress. That's one thing, the issue of impunity.

Clamping down on dissidence is the latest development we've seen in the past few months. The authorities are beginning to clamp down and to be less tolerant than they used to be only two years ago. Now people are being detained. Just in the past six or seven months, three or four prominent anti-government people have been detained and are facing prosecution for this. One in particular, a judge, remains in prison. Others were in prison for six or seven months. That wasn't happening two years ago within this administration. There seems to be an increase in intolerance of those who do not agree with the government.

I don't know whether I've clarified anything.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

In fact, to the point of my colleague Mr. Silva, even those with Oswaldo Álvarez, even political opponents are being incarcerated now, and there's some charge called “media terrorism”. Do you know what that is?