Evidence of meeting #23 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was venezuela.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
If they're hearing voices, they've got a faulty cable.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
To build on that, though, I honestly believe there is a difference between free speech and subversion. I've given you cases where there are. But there are scores of cases where journalists have been attacked by unknown assailants. There are a lot of these cases.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
That's where I was going next.
We were told that the army is close to the people, but that the police is where the main flow of the corruption is and where the hoodlums are. In fact, some people consider the attack on the synagogue to probably have been by the police themselves. But there's a disconnect between the government and the police, and it's the police who are functioning with impunity.
Would you see the situation as similar to that?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
That's a hypothetical case, and I think in any situation we could find loose cannons, where people take things into their own hands. There have certainly been enough of those cases that I personally believe there is some kind of intimidation happening.
If I could just build on what I was saying once more, in looking at some of the cases where reporters were being hassled or the 32 radio stations were shut down, I pressed the gentleman about this, the one who was a representative of Public Space and a defender of free speech. I pressed him if there were a reason these people were being told they were fired or whatever, and he told me that often in Venezuela journalists are poorly trained. They may get the story wrong, they may not have the facts, and they may say something highly damaging to the government with no factual basis whatsoever. So there are a lot of complications and nuances here.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I want to go back to the anti-Semitism for a moment. You seemed to be careful in how you talked about Mr. Chavez and how he is aggressive towards Israel. There's no doubt about that.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
He's critical of Israeli foreign policy.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
We've had witness testimony here that there are American bases surrounding this country, that he feels under pressure, and thus he's cooperating with Cuba—and Iran as well. But if you come back to what you've told us about the Cuban paramedics being in the country—I think you said 30,000 were in the country—I think that would align nearly anybody out of a sense of desperation for their fellow people, if they could get that kind of support. But I am concerned about the stories we heard about American influence. Have you heard anybody imply or suggest that the CIA is involved?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
Involved in what?
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Involved in any attempts to bring down this government, or set the stage for that.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
I interviewed two military strategists, two highly respected professors who were critical of Chavez. I asked them, do you think the United States was involved in the 2002 coup? The answer was absolutely yes; they were off the coast with intelligence and they co-directed the situation.
When you listen to interviews with Chavez about who his captors were in 2002, he claims they were American. He told Larry King this. That's his claim, and that's the claim of these professors.
What impressed, albeit maybe not startled, me about the answer I'm relating to you is that had a supporter of the government claimed that the CIA or U.S. was involved, that's one thing, but when I hear critics of the government, very conservative people who are very respected, saying that, I think there's credibility to what they're saying.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Is there a disconnect now between Mr. Chavez and the original revolution? I'm thinking of the megalomania you referred to a while ago. I'm just curious about that.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
I find it very important when the vice-president of the party declines and calls him a megalomaniac and says there isn't enough internal discussion and that this revolution has become more about him than the people. I'm concerned about that. I think when any government stays in power for 11 years, it gets a little rusty, and people are--
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
Right. Forgive me.
I think some of these economic policies that were mentioned previously, the high inflation rate, the policies that don't work in the agricultural sector, the bureaucratic red tape.... I didn't have time to go into those, but although there's more access to health care and social programs, there's just a lot of red tape.
I talked to one woman who was working. She said she was trying to decide whether it would be worthwhile to continue working, because she wasn't making that much versus what she would get on a subsidy for not working. If she didn't work, she would spend her days standing in line for subsidized food. There's huge red tape.
Personally, I think there's a group of people who want to see somebody come up the middle, somebody who has a heart for the poor, somebody who doesn't ignore the voice of the majority population but somebody who may not be such an ideologue. I think that coup in 2002 really radicalized Chavez, and it's understandable. It's understandable, yet it comes back to kind of shoot him in the foot.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you very much.
For the next round we go to the Conservatives. Are you starting, Mr. Sweet?
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I'll be brief, Mr. Chair, and then I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Hiebert.
Thank you, Doctor, for your testimony and also for all the good work you've been doing. You've been studying in the south for almost 30 years now.
You did make the comment that two people who were critical of the government mentioned the U.S. intervention in this. It seems it's convenient for leaders to create an enemy and distract people from problems.
On that note, the other enemy that was mentioned in some other testimony was Colombia. We also had a witness from a very credible NGO who said that's kind of ridiculous, because many Venezuelans were originally Colombians who migrated. Is that true?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
It is true. What's true is that Colombia and Venezuela depend on each other economically. If you go to the border region of Venezuela and Colombia, you will see more clandestine trade than you can shake a stick at. You see food coming over clandestinely from Colombia. You see cheap gasoline. Gasoline is 15 cents a gallon in Venezuela coming over the border. So yes, the people relate. It's convenient for both the Colombian and Venezuelan presidents to manufacture an external enemy. It's the classic scheme in political science, because it defers your own problems to somebody else.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Lastly, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to clarify. You had talked about TV stations and radio stations possibly being complicit in the coup. This continues to go on. If it were one or two, but with six TV stations and 32 radio stations, we're now eight to nine years after the coup, and he continues to go on. He continues to intimidate anybody who chooses to report on the government. Of course you had mentioned that some of the people inside say he's actually trying to galvanize and aggregate all the power within his own grasp.
I just want to make sure that we're not dismissing the actions toward free media as something that continues to be justified.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
No, I think it's important to uphold free speech and to criticize breaches of free speech. I think we see a nuanced situation in which we do have highly placed elements of the TV and radio stations saying things that I would call subversive, or reporters saying highly irresponsible things. We also seem to have a policy of intimidation on the part of the government against opposition journalists. I would say it's kind of a mixed bag there. But we shouldn't forget that some of these stations that have been turned down.... I mentioned Globovisión, because that would be the big one. It would be like ABC or NBC in the States. So when you have the leader of that saying what I would call subversive things, that's questionable.
I would perhaps end with one more comment. The country with which we are on the verge of signing a free trade agreement--Colombia--has no opposition media whatsoever--print, radio, or TV. There are absolutely none. Any expert on Colombia will tell you that. I'm not saying that justifies what Chavez is doing, but if I were to compare the situation of free speech in Venezuela, it's far better and far more variegated than it is in Colombia.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for your testimony. It's been very interesting, very informative, and I appreciate it.
You mentioned in your comments the HDI, the human development index. I note that the index is made up of primarily three things--life expectancy, literacy and education, and GDP.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
And health care, and redistribution of income: the Gini index.