Evidence of meeting #23 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was venezuela.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Yes, GDP; so it's largely economic-based.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
No, it's also social-based: access to social health care, access to education. The Gini index is a measure of wealth division, not how big the economy is.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Right.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a primary indicator--it would be difficult to quantify--would be the status of human rights in a country if we're talking about economic well-being. It doesn't surprise me that Venezuela has done well, in terms of the price of oil, since 2005. So I just draw that to your attention as a possible explanation.
My colleagues have raised these issues independently. Collectively, putting it all together, what we've heard is that judges are being imprisoned. We had a witness here not that long ago who talked about the case of Judge Afiuni. I don't know if you've heard about her.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
Yes. That's one of the cases we just discussed.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
There's the Supreme Court justice basically saying that the court itself is not there to be a check on the executive. You talked about there not being proper checks and balances.
As well, we've talked about the attacks on synagogues in the Jewish community.
We've talked about political opponents being prevented from running, or being imprisoned.
We've talked about corruption in the public service. It hasn't been mentioned, but it was told to us that a minister of the government admitted that 15% to 20% of the crime in the country, including violent crime, is being committed by their own police force.
We've talked about the media being closed, about journalists being attacked and intimidated.
It hasn't been mentioned, but there is also legislation, apparently, that requires individuals to serve between six and thirty months in prison for insulting Mr. Chavez.
When you put that whole picture together, it's not a pretty one. It is, from my perspective, cause for concern.
Comparing it to Colombia might be one way of saying it's bad here, but it's worse there. Would that not be a fair assessment?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
No. I think your assessment is imbalanced, and I think that's part of the problem with Canadian foreign policy right now. Everything I heard you say was a composite of what's wrong with Venezuela. And it is; all those things you mentioned are true. But I didn't hear you mention anything positive. When I hear people mention only the negative and not the positive, I sense an imbalance that's dangerous and that entrenches polarization and that works against conflict resolution.
When I compare it to Colombia, I compare it only in a sense of context. I think these problems are problems. I think it's a problem that Chavez is a megalomaniac. I think there is a problem with all those things you mentioned, in part, but we have to look at it in the context of what are the positive achievements.
One of the things that very much worry me in terms of the broader picture of Canadian foreign policy is that we have been viewed, more and more, as an appendage of the United States without an independent policy. Instead of the kind of even-handed approach we have taken before that has allowed us to be a mediator of conflict with Cuba and that has allowed us to be a mediator of conflict with Central America, if we dig in our heels and entrench, and if we turn a blind eye to one country--to Colombia, say--and see only the negative in Venezuela, I would find that very dangerous.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Is there not a place for the government to point out problems like this? I mean, I hear your argument suggesting that we can't pick and choose, that we can't put the magnifying glass on one country and not on another. But I'm not persuaded yet that as a government we cannot focus on these issues as we find them. It's kind of like the story about the shells on the beach. You have to help the ones that you find.
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
Sure. I think it's important that we criticize the negative aspects of Venezuelan human rights. At the same time, I think we would have far more influence if we went in and said something like this: We very much respect the positive things you've done. We very much respect the redistribution that's happening, and that you have these positive achievements. Yet we are very worried about these human rights abuses in terms of journalists, in terms of the judiciary, in terms of the tyranny of the majority, and in terms of all these other things.
I think when you come out swinging, with only a view that's negative, they're not going to listen. They're not going to listen to our ambassador, they're not going to give Canada meetings with Venezuela, and we are going to be perceived as part of the problem. That's why I try to emphasize an even-handed approach.
I think we should criticize--
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
I do have one other question.
Do I have any time left?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
You're actually out of time. In fact, you're over by a minute and 45 seconds.
We're at the end here, but with the indulgence of the committee, I would like to ask a question.
Is it okay with everybody if I do that?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Okay.
You gave the human development index for last year, I guess the most current year--
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
--and for 2005.
Mr. Chavez has been in power since 1998, I think.
I'm just curious: do you have the numbers going back earlier? Are they available?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
I don't, but you could easily look them up.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Okay. I'll get our researchers to look them up.
Secondly, you mentioned the trend in Venezuela, but you didn't mention the trend, although you gave the numbers, for some surrounding countries, such as Peru and Ecuador. Have they been staying more or less in stasis in their areas, or have they been moving up as well--or perhaps down?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
One of the ways you measure inequity--it's probably the way most economists measure inequity--is with the Gini coefficient. The higher the Gini coefficient is, the worse the inequity is. Brazil used to occupy that position, as recently as 2005, I believe. With the policies of Lula, which have come up the middle in terms of being friendly to capital but also being concerned with social welfare, that has been brought down significantly.
The country that remains the highest—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
So the Gini coefficient has come down, which means that the ranking of Brazil has gone up. Would that be correct?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
That would be one measure of inequity that's gone up; although I didn't trace the history of what's gone on in Brazil, I suspect it has, based on Lula's policies.
Right now the country that occupies the highest Gini coefficient in South America, and I believe in Latin America, is Colombia--that has not changed--at around 0.59 or 0.60.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Right. The number can only go between one and zero, is that correct?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
That's right.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
So one is perfect inequity, where one person owns everything, and zero is everybody's equal?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
Right. I think Canada ranks somewhere around 42 or 43.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Okay.
This is an amalgam of different measures of development, ranging from the measures of social equity to access to health care and a whole range of other things. Do the UN statistics break those down and give rankings for countries in those individual components, or is it simply the composite that's done?
Professor, Political Sciences, University of British Columbia
You can look up in larger reports the percentages that have changed from one year to the next--the percentage of literacy, say, or Gini coefficients, and so forth.