Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Peter Ash]

Very much so. I believe we need to get the ball rolling with a statement from this committee, which we're hoping might spur on our resolution. A statement from this committee--on letterhead--to the Government of Tanzania would make a huge impact.

I can tell you that I was at the United Nations in Geneva in September of last year, and I had a chance to speak before the Human Rights Council. It was interesting. I shared with them for two minutes, with all the member nations present, about this crime against humanity. As soon as I finished my speech, a man ran over to me from across the room. He was the chair of the human rights commission for Tanzania. You'd better believe he was on edge, because now this dirty little secret had been exposed for the world to see.

Frankly, that's what we're banking on here: international pressure. Tanzania is a democracy, and the Government of Tanzania does want to be thought of well in the west. They do want the funding support they get from western countries.

So a letter from this committee and a letter from the House, and perhaps a letter from our High Commissioner in Tanzania, we believe would be of great assistance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We turn now to Mr. Hiebert.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Ash, for your testimony. It was truly compelling. I don't want to even reflect too long on the story you told, but it certainly moved me.

Last week Canada hosted a conference with Commonwealth parliamentarians. Among those present were two elected officials from Tanzania. I raised this issue with them, and they expressed a great deal of concern. They mentioned that the government had been taking steps, talked about the implementation of the death penalty for people caught attacking people with albinism, and mentioned as well that there was a current sitting member of Parliament who also had albinism.

Can you confirm that in fact this is the case?

[Peter Ash]

Yes, there is a member of parliament with albinism in Tanzania, Al Shaymaa Kwegyir; she's a friend of ours and we're thrilled that she is.

That doesn't change the fact that there are still 58 people who have been murdered and only three cases brought to prosecution.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Absolutely, and I think you're spot on when you indicate that a greater motivation on the part of the government to prosecute needs to be instilled in them.

I also wanted to mention that when the subject matter came up last week, we made a request from the High Commission in Nairobi; my understanding is that the High Commissioner for Kenya is also responsible for Tanzania. The information we have before us indicates that officials met with representatives from Under the Same Sun last Friday.

So I think your request has been granted in advance, and hopefully further meetings can occur as well. But certainly more work needs to be done.

Now, one of the statements that this member of Parliament from Tanzania mentioned to me on Friday of last week was that the government had provided security or police to be with people with albinism. Is that in fact true as well?

[Peter Ash]

No, it's not true at all. I've been to the affected regions five times now. In every community where murders have been taking place, the only security present were the security guards I brought to protect me and my team.

Yes, there are police in those villages, just as there are in every village in Tanzania, but my staff and I have been to the homes of dozens, if not hundreds, of people with albinism, and we've never seen police officers anywhere in proximity to those homes. So maybe they've thrown on an extra patrol or two, perhaps, but we have not seen evidence of it.

With respect to the parliamentarian's comment that they've implemented the death penalty in this case, let's be clear: the death penalty has been on the books in Tanzania forever for capital murder. They didn't put it on the books to protect people with albinism. It's been on the books forever in the case of any capital murder. So they've done nothing unique or special about people with albinism.

In the three cases were a few people have been brought to conviction, a few of the men have been sentenced to death; they're sitting on death row. No one's been actually executed in Tanzania for 15 years.

So while it is true that the death penalty is on the books in the law of Tanzania, as it was in most Commonwealth countries at one time, including Canada, what's not true is that it was brought on in some kind of a response to these albino killings.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay.

Now, they may be saying that there is the death penalty, as you pointed out, for people who commit murder in these instances, but what about a disincentive or a criminal code prohibition against not simply killing people but taking their limbs or taking their body parts and leaving them alive? Has any work been done on that front?

[Peter Ash]

There is an act in Tanzanian law. It's the Witchcraft Act of, I believe, 1928. There's one other act that deals with trafficking in human organs.

It's already a criminal offence in the criminal code of Tanzania to traffic in human organs. It's already illegal. This is one of the challenges we've faced in the criminal prosecution, that because the charges are often murder, if you can't actually....

As you know, the burden of proof in a capital murder is very high. So if you can't prove that someone was involved in a murder, as in a number of cases where people have gotten off for some reason that we can't explain....

Well, I have an explanation for it. The reason is that witchcraft is so endemic in the culture that part and parcel of the practice of witchcraft is the possession of either animal body parts in the use of animal sacrifice or, in some cases, human sacrifice.

So really the issue here is that there are very powerful and influential people who have thousands of dollars to buy albino body parts. These are not poor Tanzanian farmers who are illiterate. These are educated businessmen and politicians who are purchasing these body parts.

If you're a member of Parliament and you're using a body part of an albino, and you're ordering it for $3,000 from your local witch doctor, how excited are you going to be about pushing the justice department to prosecute the offenders? What do you think? Once you get that guy, that witch doctor, on the stand, and he's asked, “Sir, who ordered the body parts from you?”, what do you think? Some of the politicians themselves are involved in this crime of ordering the body parts. The witch doctors have told us that some of their clients are politicians. I've had politicians tell me that they know other politicians who consult witch doctors, but they won't name them.

So we have a conspiracy of silence because there are people in tremendous power in this country who use witchcraft. If this thing were really blown open, it would blow open the government of Tanzania, including the cabinet perhaps.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

It sounds as though you're satisfied with the legal steps in place to prosecute, but you are dissatisfied, I think we would agree, with the motivation, or the lack of motivation, behind the prosecution.

[Peter Ash]

It is the lack of political will, because I believe that there would be an incrimination factor attached to the politicians. The criminal code of Tanzania is not the problem. Enforcement is the problem.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I just want to say in closing that I've reviewed your document, including your proposed motion, and I think it reads very well. I will encourage my colleagues on the committee to give it strong consideration, even perhaps as early as this afternoon.

Thank you.

[Peter Ash]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We move now to the second round of questions. These will be shorter. They're going to be five minutes each. The order has changed. Our clerk has provided me with a helpful card here. The order is now Liberal, Conservative, Bloc Québécois, and NDP. That will fill the amount of time we have available.

We begin with Mr. Silva and then go to Professor Cotler, please.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I'll divide my time with Professor Cotler. In fact our time is very limited, so I'll make it very brief.

I know that we're specifically dealing with Tanzania, but witchcraft is practised all over different parts of the world, not only in Africa. I'm wondering if this is a problem in other parts of Africa and what the governments in those countries are doing to combat this issue.

[Peter Ash]

The problem is across the continent of Africa. People with albinism across Africa are widely discriminated against. They have been for hundreds of years.

There have been 15 documented killings in the country of Burundi, which borders Tanzania. In fact, I'm sad to report to the committee that I got word Saturday morning that five Tanzanian killers had crossed the border into Burundi on Thursday, just a few days ago, and kidnapped a nine-year-old boy. The men brought him across to Tanzania, we believe. They killed him, dismembered him, and threw his body in a river that runs along the Tanzanian-Burundi border. So a killing occurred just a few days ago.

There have been documented cases of killings in Swaziland, in southern Africa, as well, which really worries us, because it's a whole different part of the continent. Two 11-year-old albino children were killed there about a month ago. In Guinea, in west Africa, three albinos have been killed in the last three months. In Kenya, a mother killed her newborn albino baby. We also have a case of a man from Kenya luring an albino friend across the border to Tanzania to sell him to witch doctors in Tanzania. He was actually exposed and apprehended and arrested by police.

So yes, the problem is transcontinental. The export of body parts is supplying a fairly wide demand. A man was arrested about a year and a half ago with the head of an albino baby in his luggage. He was carrying the head into the Democratic Republic of the Congo. He was a Tanzanian businessman. He said that he had buyers lined up in Congo to purchase the head by its weight.

So yes, this is a pan-African issue that needs to be addressed more widely than just within Tanzania. We're focusing for the moment on Tanzania because it has the highest number of killings we're aware of.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I want to follow up directly on your comments, Mr. Ash. You spoke, and rightly so, of the importance of public education within Tanzania. Because of what you just mentioned, the pan-African character, my question is about public education beyond Tanzania for the purpose of mobilizing awareness and understanding, which would have an impact both within Tanzania and beyond.

I have two specific questions. Number one, have you sought to bring the matter before the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights because of the pan-African character? And two, have you sought to bring the matter up before the United Nations Human Rights Council?

[Peter Ash]

First, with respect to the African commission, we have not yet. We've been very busy on this issue. We've appeared before a lot of governments and a lot of committees, but that's not one we've gotten around to yet.

In answer to your second question, yes, we presented to the Human Rights Council when I was in Geneva last year, in September. A videotape of my presentation is on our website, and you can watch it. It's also on the UN website.

When I was in Geneva last year making that presentation, I had the opportunity to meet with ambassadors of several African countries and to highlight this. Of course, the interesting thing about it is that a lot of times they say, “It's not in my backyard”. Some African countries seem to take delight in the fact that there are not as many documented cases in their countries, and they're happy about the fact that it's someone else's problem.

What we've discovered is that a lot of times these killings happen but they're not documented. As you know, many African countries don't have great freedom of the press. In countries where freedom of the press is more limited or where the press is fearful of criticizing the government, ritual killings and witchcraft-related killings occur, but they often go unreported. So because there aren't reports and because there isn't police documentation, one should not conclude that discrimination and killings aren't going on.

Tanzania happens to have a very free press. And it was Vicky Ntetema, the BBC bureau chief, exposing this story in 2008, who got it on the world's radar.

So yes, more pan-African education is needed. And we're doing our best to be part of that.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That eats up the time available for Liberal questioners.

We turn now to Mr. Sweet from the Conservative Party.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It just seems so much more painful that, in a continent where it's tough to avoid such risks to life as AIDS, malaria, and a lack of infrastructure and clean water, there's also this epidemic that is so atrocious.

Mr. Ash, I just want to thank you and all of your colleagues, volunteers and staff, who do the great work of Under the Same Sun, both here and on the continent of Africa.

With my time, Mr. Chairman, I'll just mention what the official government position is, and then I'll ask my colleagues to agree on a point here, on Mr. Ash's suggested motion. I want to read into the record the official government policy right now:

Canada condemns in the strongest possible terms the human rights violations that are being carried out against persons with albinism. Canada supports actions to mitigate against human rights violations being carried out against albino minorities in Tanzania and beyond. Canada actively pursues opportunities, where possible, to support the protection of human rights of persons with albinism in Tanzania.

Maybe to--

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Can we take that as a motion?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

No, that is just reading into the record what the official government policy is. But you can take this next part as a motion, for which I'm going to ask for unanimous consent.

What Mr. Ash gave us was a well-articulated motion. I think we'll probably do away with the “Whereas” sections on the first page, but on the second page of Mr. Ash's submission are six points that appear under “Resolved, that the Government of Canada”.

I would like to ask my colleagues for unanimous consent--bearing in mind that the clerk and the researcher will need to wordsmith it to a degree--that this would be a statement from the committee to ask the government to affirm that this is resolved by the Government of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

So everything from “Resolved” onwards, is that correct?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That's correct--with the premise that our clerk and researcher may need to wordsmith it, not for content but for grammar and for protocol, I guess.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Are you actually moving a motion to this effect, or are you asking us to give consent for the clerk to revise it and bring it back to the committee?