Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2010

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Well, I certainly appreciate what you just said about being on the receiving side of a major injustice. So we're in an area of caution; that's all my point was.

This case is very troubling. It's easy to see why it has influenced lawmakers in various parts of the world. I'm sure this committee will give a thorough look at what you're proposing. I thank you.

[William Browder]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you as well.

We turn now to the Conservative questioners.

Mr. Sweet, I guess you'll be starting, and then Mr. Hiebert will follow.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Browder, for your testimony today and for championing this for Sergei.

I want to ask you about your business interests in Russia. Have they all been liquidated now? Do you have any interests left in Russia?

[William Browder]

I essentially have no business left in Russia. It's too dangerous a place for me to operate in. Given that I'm categorized as an enemy of the state, it's certainly not a hospitable business climate, for me anyway.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, I assumed that, but I needed to get the answer to that.

The second thing is I would imagine that since you have been championing this cause, not only in remembrance of Sergei but to bring human rights justice to the situation as much as possible through the denying of travel to those responsible, you must have received threats by now.

[William Browder]

I have. Since about a couple of weeks before Sergei died until now, I or my colleagues have received eight very explicit threats of death or violence as a result of all this stuff. It's obviously very troubling.

But one thing I can say is that four days before he died, while he was incarcerated and in a much more dangerous situation than I'm in, Sergei provided testimony and more detailed statements about the crime and the people involved, even naming further names. If he was brave enough to do that from jail and he died as a result, it's my duty to him to not be scared, and to be brave, and to do what I'm doing right now.

As unpleasant as it is to get death threats, it's even more unpleasant to think about what happened to Sergei. I'm going to continue to stand up for him, and his name, and the justice he deserves.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Browder.

Have you reported these threats to the appropriate authorities, and could you tell the committee the nature of these threats?

[William Browder]

The threats came in the form of text messages and voice mail messages that originated from Russia. Before Sergei died, we received messages. Text messages came to one of our Russian lawyers in London that said, “What's worse? Prison or death?” Shortly thereafter, we got a message saying, “History tells us that anyone can be killed”, quoting Don Michael Corleone of The Godfather.

I then received a voice mail message of someone being severely beaten, and then after Sergei died, we received several more of these messages, including one--I won't repeat the swear words that came in it--that said, “We're coming to get you”, and then it was swear, swear, swear.

Since we all live in London, all these messages were reported to the SO15, which is the anti-terrorist unit of the Metropolitan Police, and a case file has been opened and a number of things are being done. Again I don't want to go into too much detail in a public forum, but it's something that they take seriously and that we take seriously. We're just doing the best we can under the unpleasant circumstances of having a rogue regime not happy with what we're doing.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'm glad that you take it very seriously.

My last question has to do with Sergei Magnitsky's family. Do you know what the situation is now? I understand that he left two children and a wife. Could you tell us about that?

[William Browder]

We're in very close contact. There are basically four dependants. There are two children--two boys--a wife, and a mother whom he was supporting. We're in close contact with them, and we're also providing them financial support so that we can look after them in the way that Sergei would have wanted them to be looked after.

I have heartbreaking conversations on a regular basis with them, and I can't even begin to express.... Whatever pain I'm feeling is one ten-thousandth of the pain they're feeling. It's one thing to have somebody die. It's another thing to have somebody die young, and it's another thing entirely to have someone die, die young, and die from torture. I can't express how that can destroy anybody's psychology. It's a slow and horrible healing process that we're trying to do step by step with the family.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Browder.

I want to turn the rest of my time over to my colleague, but I'd like to get this on the public record: have the family been threatened as well?

[William Browder]

I don't believe the family have been explicitly threatened, although they wouldn't tell me if they had; if they had been threatened, they would be scared to talk on the line.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

Your testimony, or at least the document that we have before us, indicates that the Moscow public oversight commission provided a report in December 2009. In it one of the commissioners indicated that she viewed this as a premeditated murder.

Further to that, it's noted that in November of 2009, Dmitry Medvedev had instigated an investigation, and that 20 senior prison officials had been fired. The deputy head of the federal penitentiary had been fired as well, and it was also linked to this Anatoli Mikhalkin.

It sounds as though a number of actions have occurred as a result of this investigation, formally or informally. My question to you is, where is justice at within the country? Has the investigation that was ordered by the Russian President actually presented its report? Are civil or criminal actions against the 60 people who have been identified taking place as we speak? What is the situation with that system?

[William Browder]

That's a good question. I'm glad you asked it. I'm particularly glad you brought up those 20 officials.

Shortly after Sergei died, they made a big deal about the fact that he died and fired 20 governors of different prisons around Russia. Of those 20 fired prison governors, 19 had nothing to do with any place that Sergei Magnitsky was held in detention, so there was no relationship between them and Sergei Magnitsky. The one who had been in charge of the prison where Sergei was held was reappointed deputy head of another prison several weeks later.

There have been no civil or criminal charges laid against any individual on this list of 60 people, and as I said before, a number of them, including the one who was most closely associated with his torture, have been promoted. It's now a year since this whole thing happened, and they've more or less said--informally, not formally, because they haven't concluded the investigation--that there is nobody who is going to be held responsible for the death of Sergei Magnitsky.

If you were to receive a visit from the Russian ambassador, he would say, “The investigation is ongoing, let it take its course”, but what he won't tell you is that some of the people on the ongoing investigation team are also some of the accused. They are running the investigation of themselves.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

All right. So we can't expect justice to occur within the Russian justice system. Is there any downside to adopting the proposal that you have put forward banning visas for these individuals and their family members?

[William Browder]

Is there any downside? That's a good question.

The one thing I would say--and this is very important to say--is that Sergei Magnitsky is one of many, many who have suffered the same fate. He's the tip of an iceberg.

The only downside is if this is so specific that it can't be expanded in the future. It's not fair that one person gets it where eventually others can. But it's only possible to start with a specific...because if we tried to do a bill for all people who did all terrible things, it would just be unmanageable.

So I would say the one thing we have to think about is making this something that can be applied to different situations, and not just in Russia but in other countries, so that it becomes a tactic for fighting human rights abuses as they come up. I think if that was Sergei's legacy, he would have done the world an enormous good. We need to start somewhere, but I do understand that a specific law for a specific person is only valuable if it can ultimately be expanded in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We're basically out of time.

It looks as though you had one more question you were about to ask, Mr. Hiebert. Why don't you take us—

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I will only if we have time.

I know you talked earlier about the burden of proof. That would be a challenge, it would seem, to the establishment of a regime in which individuals like this would be registered as terrorists in their own nations and put on a list such that they would be prevented from getting visas. How do you suggest that burden of proof be established when their own justice system won't hold them accountable?

[William Browder]

Their justice system won't hold them accountable, but let's say that I go to your Minister of Justice or ministry of justice and I provide the evidence that we provided to other people. If that evidence is sufficient based on rules of evidence, then I think that's a perfectly appropriate way.

It's just like how in Russia, if you can't get justice, you can go to the European Court of Human Rights outside of Russia for certain types of cases. This is a different type of process, but we're saying if you can't get justice inside of Russia, and you have prima facie evidence of torture and murder, and a law like this is passed, then there is somebody inside your interior ministry or ministry of justice who will then analyze the evidence and say, “Yes, this is compelling enough evidence that we can make this decision.”

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hiebert.

Thank you as well, Mr. Browder.

Before I let you go, are there any last comments you wanted to make?

[William Browder]

I think we've really very nicely covered the story, and I have to say I'm impressed with the level of knowledge and thoughtfulness with which everybody has come into this meeting. This is obviously a well-prepared group.

I thank you for giving me this opportunity, and I hope we can do something together in this case. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you for that compliment. Of course, if we're well prepared it's largely because we received the documentation you sent to us, which was circulated.

Speaking of documentation, I believe there is some follow-up documentation, so I would just encourage you and our clerk to be in contact with each other about the remaining documentation that was discussed. We'll make sure it gets circulated to all members of the committee.

I'm going to end that item, committee members, and we'll turn now to dealing with another matter. It's a budgetary matter, and to do this we probably should go in camera. So could I get someone to make a motion that we go in camera?

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I so move.