Evidence of meeting #35 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghani.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I was hoping for better news than that. I think you hit on it when you said that NATO has given up on the Karzai government. That's troublesome, because they installed this government. By abdication, they allowed them to stay in office, when Abdullah Abdullah believes that they won the election. I'd like to hear more about your preconditions. My belief is that Canada should come out of there; our military forces should come out of there. But if we're going to ask for preconditions, how in the world could we guarantee that? What's the measuring stick? Where do we say that the preconditions have been met? We're already there, and we are supposed to come out next year. You're saying we should set preconditions: if we don't see something happening in ten months, we should come out.
Rev. Majed El Shafie
I'm saying to connect it.
In the last nine years we've given $1.5 billion to the Afghanistan mission. Forget about the money. The money is not as important as 150 Canadian soldiers. If we did not succeed in putting conditions, and we saw the reality and the fruit on the ground.... It's easy to see it; it's not that hard. You go to Kabul and you know where the location of the police station is. I was there for a few days and I succeeded, without intelligence, to pinpoint different positions just in Kabul, the capital, the most secure area, of boy play.
We went inside and we filmed. That's the tape I wanted to show to the committee, but we couldn't work it out. I think everyone received the tape of the evidence. We succeeded to get inside and monitor. We knew where it was. We knew which police station did this. When we say “corruption”, we see in the paper, and that's evidence, of people who basically are arrested by the Afghani government. This is hard-core evidence in front of you. It's easy to know when there are changes.
The improvement of human rights in Afghanistan should be connected to our existence in Afghanistan. How much are we spending on the mission and how many troops are putting their lives in danger, if they are not improving human rights?
Your idea is very good. Make it connected to a timeline. Within this timeline, if we did not see improvement, if we did not see free elections, if we did not see free people, if we did not see that this law is cancelled from the Afghani constitution, I think we should save our money and our soldiers' lives and we should get out of Afghanistan.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
On the point you've just made, how many years have we been there?
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Nine years, and we haven't had successful elections. We haven't put a stop to any of these things. We haven't changed the culture. Madam Deschamps is correct. These are systemic, ingrained, cultural problems. They're not political. The abuse of children and the abuse of women is a cultural thing. It would take a huge change of government thinking in this country. I'm not so sure it's possible.
Our intervention has been in a fight with the Taliban, and I absolutely believe our forces conducted themselves in an exemplary fashion. But the rest of this is happening. Our troops are so-called “inside the wire”. They go outside of the wire for the patrols and what not, but they're removed from the society. You would have found that when you were there. I'm not so sure there's any way, especially in a short timeframe, to say we can accomplish this.
I think the international community has a responsibility to come up with some way of doing it, but I'm not so sure connecting it to our troops is a way to do it. Connecting it to aid and dollars may well have a stronger influence.
Rev. Majed El Shafie
I think both of them will have a strong influence.
I disagree with you about something, about just leaving without even trying. I understand that we've been there for nine years. The only problem is, if we left right now without trying until the last minute, we would have shed the blood of these 152 Canadian soldiers in vain. That's how I look at it.
I will just finish my statement, though.
What I am really saying is, if we give up on the people of Afghanistan, how will this help the people there? If we say okay, we're pulling out and we're not trying, how will this help the women who get raped there, how will this help the children who get raped there, how will this help the people who want freedom of religion there? What I am really saying is that we should focus with different strategies on the mission in Afghanistan. This strategy is not coming from giving a blind eye to what Hamid Karzai is doing.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I'm not suggesting NATO should pull out. I'm saying that the commitment that Canada has given over nine years that cost us 150 lives is a more than reasonable contribution to what has happened there. There's a significant increase, a surge of American troops that are in there. If we withdrew and we went from the aid side--of putting pressure on in that fashion--I think it would be a reasonable way, again after being there for nine years.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I'm going to have to interrupt at that point. We're up to nine and a half minutes on an eight-minute round.
I turn now to the Conservatives. Is it Mr. Hiebert or Mr. Sweet?
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I'll begin and then I'll share my time, Mr. Chairman.
With the blood that Canadian sons and daughters have spilled in that country, with the millions that has been spent on schools, with the millions of children in schools over there--a large percentage girls--with the high percentage of women parliamentarians there, with the millions of dollars spent on infrastructure, it's difficult for me to contain my frustration when I hear this testimony.
Don't get me wrong, Reverend El Shafie. My frustration is with the content of your testimony, not with you. I'm very grateful for what you've done here, but it's frustrating. I agree with my colleague, MP Silva, that measurable progress in a reasonable time needs to be made here.
It's reprehensible with the women, this abdication of responsibility to protect women. It's reprehensible that this boy play.... This is abominable, as far as we're concerned. And this whole notion that Christians would be persecuted to the degree that they'd be put to death....
You know, Mr. Chairman, Hamid Karzai came here himself and he walked through arches out here that say “Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son”, and “Where there is no vision, the people perish”, and “He shall have dominion also from sea to sea”. He had to walk through those arches. That's what we placed on there on the Peace Tower. I just.... Like I said, it's hard for me to contain my frustration. But let me get to a question and then move on to my colleague.
You sat down with the independent human rights commission that the Government of Canada funds. Have they confronted the Afghan government there with these concerns you've had? What was their response to you about the kind of reception and feedback they got from the government there?
Rev. Majed El Shafie
I believe they confronted the Afghani government with these issues. I don't think they confronted them about the freedom of religion. I didn't hear this in the meeting. I think it was more about the boy play and Shia law—the women's status law—in Afghanistan.
What I got was that it was completely dismissed by the Afghani president. The main thing when I met with Dr. Samar, she asked me where Canada is in all of this. She was asking me where Canada is in all of this, where is the west in all of that. And it was a legitimate question.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
So they have confronted the government officials and on every count they've just dismissed them.
Rev. Majed El Shafie
On every count. I think there was actually a meeting. She shared with me that she went to a meeting with Mr. Hamid Karzai himself, and he told her he would take a look at it, this and that. After that, he passed a law. He completely dismissed and ignored her.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
So this law was passed, this law that forces a woman to have sex with her husband on his command, this was passed after their last audience with Karzai and his government?
Rev. Majed El Shafie
I would assume so. I don't know the exact scheduling of meetings with him. But actually it was passed before the last Afghani election.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I'll just turn the rest of my time over to my colleague, Mr. Hiebert.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. El Shafie, for being here.
I have to say that your testimony is compelling and detailed. Your submission as I've reviewed it is an excellent document, with detail far beyond what I would normally have expected. It makes me deeply concerned about the situation in Afghanistan, about the abuse and the persecution of Christians and religious minorities, and about the abuse of women and the sexual slavery of boys. It's abominable. We deal with a lot of difficult issues at this committee, but this one really strikes a chord in me.
You've given some excellent suggestions on what our government can do. You pointed out in your testimony and in this document that good laws exist in Afghanistan. But the good laws are not being enforced and the bad laws are not being repealed.
You also show that there is a lack of will to enforce some of the constitutional rights that women, children, and religious minorities are supposed to have. You also document the need for public education. I hear you saying in your testimony that you still have hope, that you haven't given up entirely. You're not suggesting that we leave now. Because if we do, we would be abandoning them to this state, and that's simply not acceptable.
Our government will be persisting in its efforts to reform the country over the next couple of years, and I hope we'll have the opportunity to bring about some of the changes that you've suggested. I can assure you that I will be raising these concerns with my colleagues in government, and I thank you for forwarding this document to them.
You mentioned in your opening testimony that you'd been successful in 300 cases over the years. Could you elaborate on how you were successful? What were the most effective things that you've been able to accomplish through those cases? Is it hiring lawyers within the country? Is it raising the issue in a political situation or in the media? Help us understand how you've been so successful.
Rev. Majed El Shafie
I am not able to discuss all the cases, because some of them are confidential. But I can speak about a few.
An immigration lawyer by the name of Chantal Desloges recently testified here. She and I took the case of Mr. Magde Youssef. He was an Egyptian who faced persecution back home in Egypt, and he was facing deportation here in Canada. He was deported, and he was tortured. Through the intervention of the immigration minister, we were able to bring him back here after we presented evidence. So we saved his life.
Another story was on W5, on CTV. A little girl by the name of Neha was two years old when she was raped because her father refused to convert to Islam. We were able to help them to get out of Pakistan to come to Canada.
Some of the cases we worked on underground. There was a gentleman from Saudi Arabia. He is a Muslim who was teaching his students about freedom of religion. He was arrested, and he received a sentence of 750 slashes. We were able to build a campaign and stop the sentence, and now he lives in peace in Dubai, in the Emirates.
There is another from the Iranian Muslim community. Two girls were arrested, and we were able to free them from an Afghani prison, but they are still under house arrest.
So there are many cases, sometimes underground here in Canada, and sometimes underground in other countries.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you. Hearing how you've been effective will help us to be more effective as well.
Again, I want to thank you for your testimony and for being here today. I appreciate all that you've provided to this committee. Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you, Mr. Hiebert.
I said at the beginning that at the end of the questions we would ask Reverend El Shafie to make some concluding remarks. I now invite him to do that.
Rev. Majed El Shafie
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to all of you so much for this opportunity.
I want to thank Mr. Mario Silva for working with me and for coming with me to Afghanistan. It was a brave action you took by coming all the way with me to Afghanistan, and I thank you for that.
Mr. Chair, I came here to Canada eight years ago. As I mentioned to Madame Deschamps, I was tortured back home in Egypt. I know what these 25 are going through. I still have my scars under my suit. Don't let the suit fool you. I still have my scars under my suit. I know the torture and the persecution these people are facing every single day.
We have the opportunity to do something. Don't make this another committee meeting. Don't make this another hour that you just come and you listen and you leave and you get busy in your normal life. Let's do something to help these people.
I came here to Canada, and I believe in Canadian values. I do believe that Canada is the temple of human rights and the conscience of our world. I do believe this. When I accepted citizenship, I knew that I was a citizen of a great country, a great nation.
What I really need is to help these people. What I really desire is to free these prisoners and do something to help them. I was one of them one day. And I know that if we fail, we will fail the Afghani people. I know that if we fail, we will fail 152 Canadian soldiers who spilled their blood on the ground of Afghanistan for their freedom.
There is a time for the oppressed when dark becomes their only colour. Silence becomes their language. And tears and crying from the pain and the persecution becomes their national anthem. This day, we can stop this circle. We can stop this circle.
I thank you for your time, and I appreciate your hard work.
God bless you.
Liberal
Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON
Mr. Chair, I just wanted to state for members of the committee, and also for people who are present, that Reverend El Shafie will be able to show that video tomorrow at six o'clock at the Government Conference Centre. Hopefully, all members will be there. It's at six o'clock tomorrow night. It's an opportunity to actually meet some members who were in the delegation and also to see the video and hear testimony as well.
Conservative