Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 30th, 2010

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I would ask that we obtain a copy of this document and verify its authenticity and translate it, please, so we can assure the veracity of the evidence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

At the end of the proceedings, Reverend El Shafie, we'd be grateful if you could table a copy with us that we can have.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Absolutely.

There was a copy given to the Prime Minister's Office as well, to Foreign Affairs, to the Treasury, Mr. Stockwell Day, and to the Minister of Immigration, Jason Kenney.

These are the three subjects, Mr. Chair. I would love to now take questions, if you don't mind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We have, according to my watch, 35 minutes. This allows us to have eight-minute rounds for each of the four parties.

We'll start with the Liberals. I gather that Mr. Silva and Professor Cotler will be splitting their time.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank Reverend El Shafie for being here. I have to say, Reverend El Shafie, that of the time I've been on this committee, which is many years, this is probably the largest gathering I've seen. This means there's great interest in this issue and there's great interest also in your findings. I was also part of the delegation that went with you into Kabul.

The fact that we're having this televised will hopefully shed some light as well to the Canadian public. I think what you have just said and what we witnessed was quite shocking and horrifying. And also what's written in your report, which is very detailed as well, is sort of a new perspective that we don't hear a lot about in the media about what's taking place on the ground in Afghanistan. It was good that it was instilled through different bureaucratic channels, but we spoke with individual victims, victim groups, organizations, and human rights groups.

In your report you talked about Afghanistan at a crossroad, and I think that's a very important way of putting that into perspective, because we are sacrificing Canadian lives. We're putting a lot of money into Afghanistan. I think you came on the right date, because today there is also the vote on Afghanistan that has been sponsored by the Bloc in the House of Commons.

Beyond that, I think the most important thing is if we're going to allow more soldiers to be in Afghanistan for training purposes and humanitarian development--which is fine, and I'm okay with that--what are we going to ask in return from the Afghan government?

I think one of the compelling things about your statement is that we have to ask for tangible, concrete steps from that government. We can't sacrifice lives and spend money in that place without asking them, “Where is your stand on human rights?” We as a Canadian government, we as members of NATO and as members of the UN, have every right to ask for accountable measures from that country and that government.

It upset me when we saw the sexual violence that was perpetrated against women, the gang raping of children. We also saw the victims as well. It was very troubling to see that there are also laws in place, government-sponsored laws, that actually take away and claw back women's rights. Every women's group we talked to spoke about the fact that things are getting worse because they're clawing back those rights, and the laws are making it more difficult for women. That's an important message to get out there. We need to have accountable measures and to make sure we go after the Karzai government and ask it where it stands on issues of human rights.

We managed to talk frankly about all issues with the government. The only issue we've had a difficult time speaking to the government about was on Christian conversions. That was the one taboo issue that they refused to talk to us about, and they gave us very little cooperation. I think it's shocking how many sacrifices we are making, but we can't even talk about religious freedom in that country because they refuse to talk about it. They know there are Christians in prisons who are being persecuted, yet they refuse to do anything about it.

So I ask you again--and they are part of your recommendations right here in this detailed report--what are the concrete steps that we want right now from the Karzai government in order for us to continue supporting them through our humanitarian missions, if we're to go beyond 2011?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Thank you, Mr. Silva.

In our report we present a recommendation. In any of our reports we don't only mention the problem, but we present what can be the solution. Now, our recommendation will not solve the problem of Afghanistan between day and night, but that's what I call a beginning.

Number one, the Canadian government needs to confront the Afghani government directly and in the international fora. I'm really saying that this problem is not just Canada's problem. As well, through NATO and the United States and the United Nations we should push the human rights envelope.

Sadly, our Canadian government did not push the human rights envelope in Afghanistan enough, and this is the fault not only of the Canadian government but also of the opposition. Because when you are the opposition, you're supposed to hold the Canadian government accountable.

The only subject that I heard about in the media was Afghani prisoners. That's the only thing I heard in the media. That's an extremely important subject, but what about women's rights, what about children's rights, what about freedom of religion?

Second, in order to push the human rights envelope, the Canadian government needs to connect their aid and their support and their military mission to the improvement of human rights in Afghanistan. So let's not just say we will be staying after 2014, and we'll cut the mission in half so everybody is happy, and they'll be behind the wire. Behind the wire, in front of the wire--it's still wire, so who cares?

My question is if we are going to stay any longer in Afghanistan, there should be preconditions with regard to the improvement of human rights violations in Afghanistan, including the cancellation of the law of abused women; including the immediate release of the 25 Christians from the Afghani prison and the securing of their lives; and including that Canada should open its immigration doors to the victims in Afghanistan, because once you are abused or raped, the Afghani society rejects you. You cannot be part of the society any more. So we need to open the door as well to some of these victims to come here to Canada.

That's my answer, sir.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

We had an opportunity to speak with both Dr. Jalal, who was a former candidate for the presidency of Afghanistan, and Dr. Sima Samar, from the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. It was an interesting perspective.

We always talk about the progress in Afghanistan vis-à-vis what happened during the Taliban period, and we always put it in the context that in terms of cultural sensitivity it would take time, for example, for women's rights to be improved and so forth. Yet many of them told us that when they were young, they had full freedom in terms of education. They didn't have to wear the head scarf. They could go out in public without any problem. What happened was much more restrictive with the Taliban. But they did have more progressive attitudes towards women some time ago.

So I think we in the west sometimes make the mistake of saying we have to be culturally sensitive to them, and it takes time. I think that's a false argument out there, and I think it's perpetuated by a male-dominated society in which the males want to have control over the females. So they project to the west and to the leadership of the west that in fact it does take time to bring about change, which is not the case.

I think all of them are saying that if we're going to bring about change, more women have to be involved. But they were also concerned about the Taliban. We know the Taliban is in cooperation in some parts of Pakistan as well and in the border areas. There are a lot of concessions being made towards the Taliban that really concern women's rights, because they know that every concession the Karzai government makes to the Taliban is basically at the expense of women's rights. It's always about taking women's rights away. It's never about doing anything for women. So that was their plea.

I would also argue--and I think you would agree with me, and I wanted to get confirmation of that--that the women's groups we met also would like Canada's presence there. They actually felt that it was beneficial for Canada to be there. They had issues with some other NATO countries. They had issues about some of the military operations. They had severe issues with the Karzai government.

They also mentioned the fact--even though now it's in the news, Dr. Jalal mentioned it a long time ago--that Karzai was receiving cash money from Iran. Also, Dr. Jalal mentioned in testimony before this committee as well that only recently is it coming out in the papers, but we knew that evidence long before.

So there's corruption going on in the government, but I think all of them, I would say, that--

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Silva, you're at nine minutes now.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I apologize, and I will conclude. I wanted to ask a question, but I will conclude by saying that all of them also mention that Canada is helping the situation in Afghanistan. We just have to demand more from them.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Absolutely, and I agree with you. Our Canadian troops are doing a great job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I think that was more of a statement than a question.

I'll now hand over to Ms. Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Reverend El Shafie, I'm going to speak to you in French.

I see my colleague Mr. Silva has a very great passion and a great preoccupation.

I know you a little. Can you tell us about your organization? You are established here in Canada. How do you operate?

You have ties with other organizations in the field that work with the affected population in Afghanistan. The war currently underway there is having a profound impact on the population and creating more corruption and poverty. With the enhanced military presence in Afghanistan in mind, I imagine the problem of violence against women and children that is being used in the name of this war is becoming endemic.

I'm asking a lot of questions because I would like to get to know you more and to know how you work. How are you supported? Where does the funding for activities come from?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Sure. One Free World International is a human rights organization. We're based in Toronto, Canada. We've been here for the last seven years.

My background is Egyptian. I was born in Egypt. I converted from Islam to Christianity back home in Egypt when I was 18 years old. I was tortured and imprisoned because of my faith back home in Egypt. Through the United Nations and Amnesty International, I came to Canada eight years ago as a landed political refugee. That's why I'm passionate about what I'm doing, because I've been there.

Our organization has 28 branches around the world. Most are in Middle Eastern countries, Africa, and some of the communist countries. We do not operate publicly. A lot of times we operate underground, with what we call intelligent resources, which means we operate through another organization or through other individuals. They are part of the society; they monitor the human rights situation, and they inform us. Once we get the information, we send an action alert. Our members send letters to their embassies or their government to promote human rights and to free the people who were arrested. We have taken over 300 cases and never lost one. We have helped many individuals who were arrested or tortured.

We also work a little on the immigration side for the people who come here. We write an expert opinion for them about the situation in their country and their culture. We are funded by private supporters. We are not funded by the government, and we don't want to be funded by the government. They can keep their money.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In my preamble, I asked you whether having a strong presence of military troops from various countries didn't exacerbate violence against women and children. In the current context, it's very difficult to impose good governance on the government in place. We agree that there are serious problems there.

Witnesses have told us that civil society was not involved in eliminating this endemic. Civil society isn't being consulted and reconstruction and humanitarian aid efforts in Afghanistan are poorly coordinated.

A lot of effort is still being made by military personnel. The military is very much present, but the international community is making very little effort to switch from the military aspect to reconstruction and then humanitarian aid.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

I don't think that our military presence in Afghanistan is the main reason why we're seeing these problems happening right now in Afghanistan. These problems existed way before our military existence in Afghanistan. That's number one.

Number two, when I met with the people--and I'm not talking about politicians now, I'm talking about people in the street, people you sit down with and have a meal with and you ask them questions from heart to heart--actually in the beginning, they had hope in us. Actually in the beginning they thought that we would be able to bring real changes.

The problem is that year after year after year after year--nine years--there is no change. What they found was that instead of us bringing a righteous government, a free government, a government that really wanted to work on the human rights issues and wanted to work on anti-corruption and anti-drugs and all of this, they find us putting a corrupted government. So they start to give up hope on us because now we seem like we are with the Hamid Karzai government in the mud; we are both together in the corruption.

So now, actually, our support of the Hamid Karzai government is the one affecting our troops and our image in Afghanistan. But in the beginning of the war they actually were hoping that we would really be able to bring peace, because they want to live in peace, and they understood the difference, that we are not coming like the Soviet Union. They understood that we were coming for a period of time and we are leaving. They understood. They are extremely smart people. They understood, but I think the main issue here is the corruption of Mr. Hamid Karzai and his family, not the existence of the foreign military troops in Afghanistan.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The problem, as you said so well, does not stem from the presence of troops there, but rather from the culture, and that's been established for hundreds of years. I'm thinking in particular of what is being imposed on women. Moreover, we're seeing these old traditions come back. I'm trying to find a logical explanation for all that, anthropological, sociological, and from all standpoints.

What could the international community do apart from sending in soldiers? How could all that be coordinated by the international community, and with whose participation in Afghanistan? Would it be civil society, the NGOs, women's groups? I'm asking you.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

All of the above. All of the above. Actually I was just talking yesterday with an immigration lawyer by the name of Chantal Desloges and was actually talking about that it has been year after year after year. And I was in a church, or a school portico, last Sunday, and there was a man who stood up and said, “Well, you know, nobody thought that the Iron Curtain would fall. Nobody thought that the Berlin Wall would fall, but it did fall.”

Nothing is impossible. Even if this has been year after year, it doesn't make it right. We have to start from somewhere. And you would think that after nine years, we at least put the seed for the beginning and we are not making it worse.

Here is how I think we will make a big difference. When the international society and the international community and the government and the NGOs start really to work on the improvement of human rights and putting Hamid Karzai accountable for his actions and for his government, that's how you close the corruption.

In the last election, Hamid Karzai had.... The results of the election were not clear. There was talk from NATO and the United Nations that there were a million votes. Now, we met with Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, who is the head of the opposition in Afghanistan, and this man said this guy cheated in the election. But NATO and the United Nations gave up. They said they would not do the election again, they would not.... You are encouraging the corruption. You are encouraging the corruption. If the man lost the election, he needs to go.

So I think it's very important that we hold the Afghani government accountable and we work side by side with the NGOs on the improvement of human rights. I think that could be a good beginning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We move on now to Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see you again, Mr. El Shafie. We've met a couple of times, and I always like to put that on the record when we're talking.

This is comprehensive, what you're laying out today. There are a number of things that draw me towards a particular question, but just as I get it set, you come up with something new. In the last part of your presentation, what you're really saying is that NATO—and I won't say Canada—has failed in Afghanistan. It's clear. NATO installed Karzai and maintained him. It is very troubling. All of us, no matter what the view is, whether we should or shouldn't be in Afghanistan, have had a certain amount of belief that there were some positive results there. It's depressing to hear stories of boy play. You're saying—and I want to be cautious here—that government officials partake of this. Do you have direct evidence of any member of Karzai's government having taken part in boy play?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

We're working on this right now. We've succeeded in pinpointing some of the MP's.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay. I'm going to be specific, because I don't want to make unsubstantiated accusations. At this point, you don't have direct evidence but you have some indication of this?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

That's correct, and we have witnesses as well.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

We should be cautious when we're in a hearing and we're talking about participation. It may be true; it may be lower officials. But I want to be cautious on that one. Irrespective of the level of government, it's reprehensible that anybody could be involved in such a disgraceful thing.

I'm sure the committee is tired of hearing this, but I was once in Saudi Arabia for six months. It was a fairly restrictive society. I was there in 1979, and there was talk of such things happening there at the time. The status of women in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan is very similar, and the way you have described this is concerning. You talked about the 25 converts who were arrested. We had evidence at our committee that a refugee has to pretty well get out of the country before he can be processed. Really, the only hope for these 25 is some kind of release. Has there been, to your knowledge, any NATO intervention on behalf of the people involved, particularly these 25?