Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 22nd, 2011

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

On the International Criminal Court ruling against al-Bashir, you almost sounded as though you thought that had been traded away. Is there any real indication of that?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Well, I've been hearing rumours that there was a possibility that it would be. I'm not sure. My training is not legal training, so I'm not sure how it can be paused or halted, or not. My understanding was that some discussions were taking place and that there would be some negotiation around that ruling, given his behaviour on the south.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It's hard to imagine. We discuss impunity often in this committee, and how people can just do whatever they wish.

One area I'm very concerned about is the internally displaced persons you have in that country. I don't know whether you know how many there are. Our understanding from previous testimony is that they're very much at risk in the camps. The women are very much at risk there. This isn't an instrument of war as such, but it's still a culturally acceptable thing, and somehow the women take the blame. Is that the case?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Generally when women are displaced and don't have a secure home or secure access to food, they're at greater risk of being raped. We work in many areas, and in every place where women are displaced, war or environmental disasters create an insecurity that puts them at increased risk. It destabilizes all the mechanisms that make people work together, collaborate, and respect each other in a community. When you tear the social fabric apart, it's very difficult to hold each other—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It further devalues the women.

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Yes, and the recourse isn't clear, if it ever was. When you don't know where the police station is, for example....

It just increases the stakes when you are attacked, and it also increases your vulnerability.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You just referred to this woman going to the south. That implies to me that the south is seen as a safer place. Is there a significant difference between the north and south, particularly regarding the safety of women?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

There are different laws. The personal status law that regulates women's dress is not the same. There are different requirements. I think there's some level of freedom that--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Do they have sharia law in the south? Perhaps it's not enforced as it is in the north--

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

I think they're going to have to rethink their constitution in the north as well. What our counterparts are saying is that the constitution in the north is being rewritten along very strict lines and without any public consultation, so there's fear of further entrenchment.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

The people in power are making sure they stay in power.

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Yes, people in power make sure that they stay in power and that women understand clearly what their place is in society. Increased rape or displacement are the vulnerabilities because of displacement and because of war, but then there are the girls who are married off at 10. That's in the law, so there are legal ways that facilitate violence against women that are just unacceptable. Women and men are working to try to change those. They need support and they need vigilance from the international community.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

We turn now to Mr. Hiebert first, and then to Mr. Sweet.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I have one question to follow up on that of Mr. Marston.

The information we were provided talks about the possibility of independence happening in southern Sudan as early as July. Do you think that independence would bring about a greater degree of freedom or the kinds of changes that you're looking to see in the country?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

It won't for the north. The counterparts we work with are in the north, and they see their degree of freedom being pulled back.

They qualify it as a return to the early nineties, when a lot of women were fired from their jobs because of their dress. It was a lot more repressive. There was some measure of freedom, but since the referendum took place, that freedom seems to be eroded: there are more visits from security officials, and there is the blatant use of rape against protesters as a form of punishment for participating or speaking out. The sense we're getting from our counterparts is that in the north the situation will definitely be worse.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

And in the south?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

In the south there seems to be some hope. There are a lot of very strong women activists who are working, and there is some collaboration between women in the north and the south. For example, Ms. Zaynab Elsawi, who testified before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs in the fall, spoke of the collaboration between women in the north and south and their commitment to keeping a common struggle beyond their borders and seeing how they can support each other. The women I've spoken to in the south are very hopeful about a brighter future for women's rights, although there's still a lot of work to be done.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Is the prospective leadership's support for women's rights the reason for their hope?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Maybe that's a bit of a stretch. I think there's more of an opening, perhaps, yes. It's not a fundamentalist interpretation of religion that is at the head of the state; although there are many other barriers, it's not the same context.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Is it a Muslim leadership or a Christian leadership?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

In the south it's more Christian, yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Gouin, for your testimony.

I was just reminded, when you spoke about al-Bashir's comments about sharia law and when Mr. Marston mentioned his experience in Saudi Arabia, that we had a serious public policy conversation in Ontario about seven or eight years ago regarding sharia. Although I'm certain some people may argue that the nomenclature might be different, I'm glad it's on the public record here today.

You mentioned leadership, political will, changing laws, and that kind of thing, but really, from what you're describing—and you did mention these groups that had the capability of going into the communities and then slipping off—there's a real job in changing the cultural or societal mindset around the value of women as well. Is that correct? Is that a big job in the north?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Yes, but one of the groups we support, the Salmmah Women's Resource Centre, has been writing a book on women's dress and documenting the history of women's dress in Sudan. Women in the sixties were walking around with sleeveless tops and big hair like pop singers; the airline stewardesses were in short skirts and little hats. There's a desire to erase all that history and to say this is the way it's always been. It's not true. Women we work with who are not of my generation--my mother's generation--remember quite well what it was like not to live under this regime.

For instance, Inter Pares helped facilitate a meeting with women who had worked on sharia law in Ontario to abolish religious arbitration. We facilitated a trip to Sudan to share and to discuss strategies with women in Sudan. Part of that was looking at the history of the women's movement in Sudan and having younger activists hear from the older women what the women's movement in Sudan had accomplished and where they were at now.

I don't know about its being cultural. I'm not convinced of that. I think there's a lot of work.... Men and women in the Sudan want a more equal society.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Good. You just answered my question. The historical memory is across gender as well, so really the major portion of the problem is with the radical, fanatical regime. That's really terrifying the people, so they allow this kind of behaviour to go on--or, as was said earlier, they rationalize this whole rape and adultery aspect.