Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 24th, 2011

[Margot Wallström]

We are working on our list. This has been done already when it comes to sexual violence against children. We have experience working with those types of lists. We need first to establish a monitoring and reporting system so that we have reliable data. Until now we have not had that, but this is exactly the mandate we were given in December. We're working on that at the moment.

What has been promising is that in the DRC, it is commanders who deal with foot soldiers, normal soldiers, because until now, it has been.... We want to go for the commanders, and the higher up the better in the chain of command. This is how it has to work to address the situation.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That's the process right now. I want you to know that no matter where we are in this study or in the future, anytime that you gather names on that list, the clerk of this committee would be glad to accept them. We would act upon that post-haste. I'm certain all my colleagues agree in that regard.

You talked about peacekeeping best practices. I had already made a list of things I wanted to find out about. Do you have a model? I understand that you go into an area where there has been devastation, whether it's natural devastation or whether it's caused by human conflict, and you set up camps for displaced people. Is there a model where you determine how much is needed per person for security, medical aid, food distribution, education, and hygiene? Is that one of the items you're working on as far as best practices are concerned to make sure that in those camps the best atmosphere is created to reintegrate those people and keep them safe?

[Margot Wallström]

As you know, in the UN we are very specialized. There are those who work on IDPs, on camps and on the design of the camps. I think this is still developing. This is not my direct task, but of course we are looking into this and the phenomenon of sexual violence being used in connection with, for example, expulsions of people who are in and around these camps. It's the peacekeepers and those who work on designing those camps who have to address this. We are trying to look into the rest.

Many of these peacekeepers, for example, come from India, South Africa, Uganda, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and they are placed in the jungle of the DRC. They don't speak any of the local languages. Suddenly this half-naked woman comes into view on the dirt road. She comes up to their vehicle and seems to be crying for help. What are they supposed to do in a situation like that? They don't understand what she's saying, but she seems to need help. They know that if they take her in the vehicle, they themselves might be accused of sexual exploitation and abuse. There has been a very lively debate about peacekeepers going to prostitutes or being accused of sexual violence. They cannot leave her there. They understand that this is a risky situation.

This is exactly the kind of training we are doing now. We are doing scenario-based training on the ground. We are trying to help them to deal with those different situations. We are also working with those who designed those camps.

When we visited Angola we discussed with the people there what was going on in connection with the people being expelled. Is it that the chain of command does not work? The police and border control allow this to happen, maybe around the chaos that exists in many of those situations. We have to make sure that it works, that the whole chain of command works, and that impunity is not the rule.

We have to address it on parallel tracks and at the same time in an effective way. My direct task is not exactly these camps, but this is definitely for the UN. This has to be part of how war support camps are designed. I'm sure there are calculations in terms of how many people are needed, how much this or that service is needed.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

What's the attitude of the local governments in the DRC and Angola? Are they complicit? Do they have an attitude of concern? Is there legislation on their books which, if enforced, could be used to prevent this sort of activity?

[Margot Wallström]

In most of these countries there is already a normative framework which is good enough, one could say. They very often have ambitious legislation against rape. They have the laws and the rules are there, but it's a matter of implementing of them. Unfortunately in the DRC, as you might know, they were not happy with my repeating the notion that the DRC was the rape capital of the world. I did not coin the phrase, but I said that as long as they allowed this to continue, their reputation would be taken hostage by the rapists and by the armed groups that use sexual violence as a tactic of war. It's very important that they themselves show that they are serious about fighting impunity, that they actually arrest these commanders. I think the whole attitude from governments and ministers has been lax until now, but I think we are seeing progress. We are seeing that we can mobilize them and that there is more of an accountability. It has become a liability also for governments that the international community is reporting on it and is following up, that the Security Council is discussing it, that there are sanctions committees in the UN dealing with it, and that there are these lists that name and shame. That is extremely important.

In Angola they were very clear and very much on the defensive. They said that this is not at all systemic, that they have found one case of a police officer who has done this and he has been arrested and put in jail. The attitude can be a little different, but they have to show they are serious by addressing these problems of impunity. Also there is the role of women. They have to give women a voice. They have to give women influence if this is to be changed over time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That uses up the available time, Mr. Hiebert.

I did ask about people wanting to ask further questions. Madame Deschamps indicated a desire to ask one more, as did Mr. Marston.

I'm going to try to leave enough time at the end. We'll finish with Miss Wallström, and then Mr. Silva wanted to bring a motion before us.

Let me turn to Madame Deschamps for a four-minute round.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for allowing me to get things in order and for giving me an opportunity to ask another question.

I would have been very disappointed if I couldn't have asked it. Ten years after Resolution 1325, the Canadian government has proposed an action plan. That was a few months ago.

Have you had a chance to read the Canadian National Action Plan to Implement Security Council Resolution 1325?

[Margot Wallström]

Thank you very much for that question. It's an opportunity for me to say that I hope other countries will follow the example of having a national action plan as the implementation or the follow-up to Resolution 1325.

I have to be very honest with you and say that I don't know your national action plan by heart, but I know from contacts with Canadians here in New York and everywhere I've been that you've been extremely helpful. I have felt the support and the backing of Canada in everything I do. Also in the Security Council setting and around New York and through my political contacts, I must say that I have felt the support of Canada and your government. That has been very important. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Do you have any other questions?

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I could go on a bit.

Aside from the action plan, do you think that Canada could do more internationally?

[Margot Wallström]

That's an invitation for me to say that I always think that member states can do even more. I think the elements of Resolution 1325 are very good. In particular, an extremely important part of it is the participation and representation of women. We can always do more in prevention. Of course, we will always need more resources for the work that is being done in practice and on the ground.

Integrating the whole thinking about sexual violence is extremely important. Maybe mentioning it explicitly would also be possible, so in any review of national action plans, I think this is what can be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

And you heard some…?

[Margot Wallström]

For example, one of the things that we have seen as extremely important is more women police, more women peacekeepers.

I would add one more element that I did not mention in my introduction, and that is the whole issue of conflict minerals. For example, in the DRC, there's the extraction of coltan and tungsten, rare minerals that are used in mobile phones. This is something that is keeping the conflict alive and will continue to fuel the conflict. Unfortunately, for the poor people in the DRC, nothing from the extraction of these conflict minerals gets back to them.

It is important to be able to trace it and hopefully one day be able to establish a global regime, such as the one that exists for diamonds, in order to be effective in fighting sexual violence.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

So, to conclude, we could give the final word and say that, basically, for Canada to be realistic about its action plan, you need to be given more funding, perhaps long-term funding, as well, so that you can achieve your objectives.

[Margot Wallström]

I hope what we do will be long term, that we can keep these issues on the agenda of the Security Council, and that it will continue to be identified as a security issue. It is important for member states to decide in their bilateral programs, in their aid programs, how this is being addressed and if sexual violence is explicitly mentioned. That could be a way forward. I would need to study your national action plan. Unfortunately, I did not have time to do that before today to be able to comment on your specific action plan.

I hope we have placed this on the radar of member states and governments when they now look at those national action plans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'll try to be to the point. What I was going to ask you, Madam, was whether there was a specific ask of the Government of Canada that this committee might present that you might offer to us.

You may be aware that Bill C-300 failed in our Parliament. It called on Canadian mining companies in foreign counties to observe the same rules and regulations they would in this country. We're about to go into an election, but I'm telling you right now that in the next Parliament, and should I be re-elected, I intend to present that bill again and make another effort, particularly in the area of conflict minerals.

This committee is probably going to dissolve within 48 hours. The past history of our committees has been that once we return to Parliament, they'll look back at the studies that have been done and will resurrect certain studies. I believe that we would want to resurrect this particular study.

In the meantime, if something comes to your mind that you would like to ask this committee to consider adding to the report, please let us know.

I don't have a specific question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Sweet, I believe you want to comment.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, I have a follow-up question.

With regard to the immediate damage to children as well as the long-term repercussions, what is the difference as far as sexual violence that's perpetrated upon them? How do the repercussions differ between children and adults?

[Margot Wallström]

The last question is also a very important one. I have to think, so I can answer it in a serious and correct way.

Of course, it depends on circumstances, but very often a child's, and especially a young girl's, life opportunities are hampered by being exposed to something like this. Very often they cannot go to school. Very often they will not be able to bear children, and that of course affects their whole lives.

At the same time, it's important that this be looked upon as a crime that is committed not only against children but also against adult women and that it not be played down. I call it a false hierarchy of war horrors that it is compared. They say that men get tortured or killed so what is a rape? You have to understand the effects on an adult woman. A child's whole future can be determined and destroyed by being exposed to rape, very often violent and brutal rape, or by being taken as a child soldier.

I met with grandmothers in the DRC. What they told me was absolutely horrific. They told me they pleaded with these young men. They told the young men they were the same age as their grandchildren—they could be their grandchildren—and asked them why they were doing this to women like themselves. They did not think they would have to go through this as 70-year-old women. It takes away the self-respect. Also there is the shame that surrounds this. It is so awful.

Very often women are the economic backbone of their societies, and after this occurs they are often depressed and they develop physical problems, medical problems such as fistula problems. It is difficult for them to bear more children.

There are all these effects on children and adult women. There is a whole range of effects.

To go back to the other issue, I understand I have to tread carefully here in the politically sensitive situation that you are in, so I won't take sides in a way that would put me in trouble. Let me say that I really hope other countries will follow the example of the United States of America. As you know, in its financial reform package it passed legislation on conflict minerals. I'm not saying it is perfect, but they are in the process of implementing it now.

To be effective it needs to be a global regime. I encourage all member states. I encourage the European Union as well as your country to look into conflict minerals and how to trace them and maybe even get to the certification process. But as a starting point, maybe following the model that will be introduced by the U.S., I think, will be very important for this whole issue to be solved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Please be very brief, Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I have just one last question on the sexual violence towards youth and children.

We had testimony from Afghanistan about a practice with young boys, boy dancing I believe it was. The additional traumatic thing about that situation was that the boy was actually enslaved for a time. Do you find those kinds of things happening in these focus countries that you're talking about? Is there long-term enslavement of young people? Are they repeatedly subjected to this sexual violence?

[Margot Wallström]

Yes. Unfortunately, this is the experience in these countries. The LRA also very often takes sex slaves. What you are saying is important. This is being done to men and boys as well as to women. It's useless to try to compare their suffering, but the stigma is also enormously strong for boys and men. Very often they hesitate to admit that this has happened to them.

I listened to one of the witnesses on the panel on reparations that was undertaken in the DRC. One of the men said that he had no idea that this could be done also to men when it was done to him. It was clear just how traumatic it had been for him. If we get more men on board in the fight against sexual violence by mentioning that this is also done to young boys and men, we can have more political ownership from men. Thank you for mentioning it.

This is also done in a form of sexual slavery. They're often forced to follow an armed group for a long time. It's not unusual that they're killed afterwards and just left in the forest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wallström. We very much appreciate your making yourself available to us today. It was very helpful.

At this point we'll wrap up this part of the hearing.