Evidence of meeting #34 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was protesters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alex Neve  Secretary General, Amnesty International
Mohamed Lotfy  Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We are the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today, May 1, 2012, is our 34th meeting.

Today we are discussing the persecution of the Copt community in Egypt. We have Mohamed Lotfy with us as a witness. He is a researcher with the Middle East and North Africa program in the international secretariat of Amnesty International. As well, of course, our good friend Alex Neve is back, safe and sound, from South Sudan.

In order to give ourselves enough time—they are on a very tight schedule—we'll go right to the presentation, followed by questions. When the presentation and the questions are over, I'm going to dismiss our witnesses and ask members to stay while we deal with a little bit of committee business.

So without further ado, let's ask our witnesses to begin.

Thank you.

1:10 p.m.

Alex Neve Secretary General, Amnesty International

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon, subcommittee members. It's always a pleasure to be in front of you. I'm certainly delighted to be able to bring such an esteemed and valued colleague as Mohamed Lotfy with me today.

As you know, he is here from our international office, where he leads Amnesty International's work on Egypt, which, as you can well imagine, especially over this last year and a half, has been no easy task. But he has, along with colleagues at our international office, spearheaded some remarkable human rights research and advocacy and campaigning efforts that have marked our response to Egypt's unimagined and remarkable year of human rights change.

I know you'll enjoy hearing his insights and experiences. He was on the ground in Egypt itself for about six months last year at various points. He's also been on the ground again already quite a bit this year, and he'll be heading back to Egypt in about two weeks' time in advance of the presidential elections.

He has both a good sense of how things have been unfolding over the last year and a half and certainly a view and assessment to share with you with respect to current conditions in Egypt. I will hand things over to him to share some reflections of thoughts with you.

1:10 p.m.

Mohamed Lotfy Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Thank you very much for inviting me to come to the Parliament of Canada to speak on human rights in Egypt and to give you my assessment and Amnesty International's views on the current situation in Egypt.

In the last year and a half, the country has witnessed some historical events, leading to a lot of expectations for development and improvement of the human rights record of Egypt, which has been grim under Mubarak, and continues to be grim under the military council that is ruling Egypt currently and since Mubarak stepped down in February 2011.

During the uprising, along with a number of other colleagues, we were trying to identify whether police and riot police have been using lethal and excessive force against the Egyptian protesters in the squares and near police stations where they have been protesting across Egypt. We were also looking at the violations by the military itself during those 18 days that changed the face of Egypt. We have come to conclusions around lethal use of force by the police and riot police that was illegitimate and unjustified and where there was no immediate need to safeguard life. It is important to point to that element.

As you know, Mubarak is on trial. The ruling in the Mubarak trial is expected on June 2. This is one of the very hot issues where victims and the families of the victims are going to want to see justice. So far they haven't seen the truth coming out of that trial. We don't want to jump to conclusions as yet, and we'll be able to comment on the trial after it has ended.

Other violations have continued during the past year and a half: torture by the military forces themselves, by the military police, but also by the Ministry of Interior and in prisons. We have been documenting torture under Mubarak for a very long time. I am sad to say that during the last year and a half there are levels of severe pain inflicted by the military on detainees known to be protesters. There are some new phenomena, like virginity testing of female protesters and degrees of sexual harassment against female protesters, witnessed in December last year that we were not documenting in the past.

The level of violence against protesters has remained similar to the pattern that existed under Mubarak's time. Riot police continue to use excessive force, using U.S.-made tear gas canisters to fire in a disproportionate way on protesters who don't represent a danger, requiring such an amount of tear gas, and shot at with shotgun ammunition, mostly produced in the U.S. and shipped to Egypt after the uprising and after Mubarak left power.

This is on the policing side. You might also be interested, as I understand, in the violence that occurred on October 9 in front of the Maspero state television building. This was one of the largest protests that the Coptic community has organized to ask for the end of discrimination and for equal treatment of all Egyptians. This protest was crushed, as you know, by killing 27 protesters. Most of them, 26, were Coptic, one was Muslim, and one soldier was also killed. Most of those killed were killed by bullets. A number of them were killed by being run over by armoured vehicles, driven, we believe, by the military.

The process of the investigation has been just as non-transparent as many other investigations of many protests in the past. The victims of those protests continue to await justice. They cannot see it coming from a military court.

I have to say that the process of investigation has been very complicated. The case was initially referred to the military judiciary. Today there are three officers from the military who are on trial for involuntary homicide for driving those armoured vehicles in the crowds. That's the charge they are facing, but nobody is charged for the killings with live ammunition. Those who were actually investigated in that respect were protesters themselves, and they were initially investigated by the military judiciary and then referred to an emergency prosecution, a civilian judicial power with exceptional powers under emergency law. Later on, that civilian process was referred to an investigative judge, and the process has pretty much stopped so far.

All defendants have been released. We're in the situation where we have two processes in parallel, a trial of three officers in the military judiciary and an investigation that continues until now at the level of the civilian judiciary.

I have to tell you that the lawyers of the victims have withdrawn from the military judicial process, from the military trial itself. They cannot see justice coming out of such a process. The military have proven that they cannot punish or hold to account people among their ranks. They have no access to old case files; the lawyers can only see the testimonies of the defendants themselves, and they can see no justice coming out of a case that is looked at by two parallel judicial investigations.

They have put in a number of demands as lawyers and representatives of the victims who were killed in the Maspero protest. Their main call is for a new, impartial civilian investigation into what happened in Maspero. They are asking for this investigation to be conducted by an impartial body that would have the power to summon officers and military men and military leadership to come and testify about their role in the orders given to those armoured vehicles and army to disperse that protest with lethal force. They have also asked for investigation into the involvement of state TV in inciting public opinion against the Coptic population. Indeed, during the killings, a state TV presenter made a live call to the public to interfere to save the Egyptian army, which is a way of inciting the general population to attack the Coptic protesters, and indeed, many Coptic protesters were attacked by extremists around Tahrir Square. Thank God, nobody was killed, but there were a lot of injuries.

This is one of the incidents where protesters were killed. There were many that followed that one. In Mohamed Mahmoud Street, over 40 people were killed in November. In the December protests in front of the Prime Minister's cabinet, 17 people were also killed. In February of this year, at least 16 people were killed near the Ministry of Interior, and in Suez near the police directorate in the city of Suez. There is a pattern of killing of protesters and excessive use of force that doesn't just apply to the Copts.

A real change in the human rights record of Egypt requires some drastic reforms of the security sector and some courageous decisions from countries that support the Egyptian police, such as the U.S., which continues to send tear gas and shotgun ammunition to the Egyptian authorities. Amnesty called for an embargo on those shipments, those ships of shame, as we call them, that have continued to provide the Egyptian authorities with the tools to repress the calls for non-discrimination and the calls for real, genuine change.

At the level of the current political situation, presidential elections are to start on May 23, in the first round. A number of political parties that we had approached before the parliamentary elections in November have made pledges to respect human rights.

I was able to meet a number of political parties, and the major ones, to get their commitments to what Amnesty sees as the main human rights issues in Egypt. These are: lifting the state of emergency; ending secret detention and torture; upholding the right to freedom of expression and association; providing fair trials to everybody; holding to account people who are suspected of having committed grave crimes under the rule of Mubarak, including torture; realizing economic and social rights for the most poor; ending forced evictions in Egyptian slums and ensuring genuine participation of the local communities in putting forth plans of development for slums; non-discrimination as a principle applied on the basis of religion, race, language, or gender; protection of women's rights; and abolishing the death penalty.

These were the ten points contained in our Amnesty manifesto, which I lobbied to political parties participating in the elections in November. Lots of them have committed to those points. Nine political parties have actually signed our manifesto, only two unreservedly. A few of the more liberal parties have agreed to all the points, except the abolition of the death penalty. And a couple of parties with Islamic backgrounds, including the Salafist Al-Nour party, which came second in the elections, have agreed to all the points except protection of women's rights and abolition of the death penalty.

The Freedom and Justice Party, which is the largest party in Egypt, has not signed the manifesto and has not given us any feedback, despite repeated demands to obtain pledges from them about their organization. We can see from their performance in parliament that they have been progressive on some civil and political rights, limiting the powers of the military tribunals to try civilians, for example, and trying to introduce a definition of torture that would encompass all forms of ill treatment. But on the other side, there is more to do in terms of rights of association and protection of women's rights. Some statements have been particularly worrying, for example, reducing the age of marriage to 14 years for girls and allowing female genital mutilation.

Now the presidential race has started with thirteen candidates, and some of the candidates belong to that political current of political Islam, where we have some worries around non-discrimination, especially on the basis of gender.

Other candidates have represented parties that we have approached who have been supportive of our manifesto for human rights changes. Amnesty met a number of the candidates previously, before they were presidential candidates, and has an open dialogue with a number of them.

Just to end on the presidential elections, there is a mounting fear of violence and attacks against protesters. Indeed, some protesters were attacked in the last couple of days near the Ministry of Defence. With the political situation, we foresee that there could be some questioning around the results of the elections, especially given that the electoral committee itself is immune from actually appealing the results of the elections, legally speaking and according to the constitutional declaration. There is a fear around questioning the results and losing trust and credibility in that committee.

The electoral committee itself is headed by the same people who have spearheaded the attack on the U.S. NGOs in Egypt, and were blamed, for the wrong reasons, for interfering in judicial matters by allowing foreign workers to leave Egypt. So there is a lack of credibility and trust in that body from the general public—for the wrong reasons, but it exists and threatens the integrity of the presidential elections.

I have to come back to the attacks on the Copts again. I mentioned the protests. There were a number of attacks on the Coptic community and churches. The most recent ones were the reason behind the attack in Maspero. A church was demolished in the south of Egypt. The Copts tried to seek repairs and a change of that policy and were not able to obtain it by peaceful means. They were actually attacked by the military police for asking for non-discrimination, not only in life in general in Egypt, but also in allowing them to build and repair churches with rights equal to those of the rest of the citizens of Egypt, namely by amending the presidential decree number 291/2705, which limits the chances for Christians to actually repair old churches and also puts as a condition for building new churches the approval of the president, which is not a condition for building mosques.

There were attacks that happened in 2010. A drive-by shooting on January 6, 2010, at a church south of Egypt led to the death of about 20 people during the sermon. After the Maspero protest in 2011, the government tried to contain the anger of the Copts by sentencing to death the man who was on trial for that first drive-by killing of 2010, and he was executed last year. So the death penalty, which Amnesty opposes, has been used as a way to appease, in a way, the Coptic community. This is not a solution that we can accept.

There are some root causes for discrimination and a lack of protection for the Copts during their sermons on several occasions, which has led to violent clashes in some neighbourhoods—

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I'm going to have to interrupt you.

I'm sorry, Mr. Lotfy, but we intended you to have a 10-minute presentation, and we're now at 21 minutes. I'm going to ask you to please summarize in about a minute or so, and then we'll go to questions.

1:30 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

I'm done.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Excellent.

All right. Given the amount of time we have left, we're going to have five-minute question and response periods. We'll start with Mr. Hiebert and then go to Mr. Marston.

Mr. Hiebert.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you.

I appreciate your being here, and I look forward to hearing some up-to-date and more recent information about what's been happening there.

I'll start with a big question. Overall, do you think the human rights situation in Egypt has improved or gotten worse since the fall of the Mubarak regime?

1:30 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

We have the tendency to make comparisons between what happened...or the human rights record of Mubarak's 30 years of rule and after Mubarak left. In our public statements we have often compared the two periods. We either say it has been worse or it has been more of the same. We have rarely said that it was better. So my answer would be, at best, that it has remained similar.

Mubarak did not try 12,000 civilians over such a short period of time before military courts. Military courts are unfair by nature because they are not independent and impartial and cannot provide a fair trial as a tribunal. Judges are actually officers from the military and are under the influence and the structure of the hierarchy of the Ministry of Defence, which is also ruling the country. That number of unfair trials did not happen under Mubarak over 30 years, but it happened under the military council over less than a year and a half.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Okay.

1:30 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

Torture has continued. Mass arrests have continued against protesters. Killings of protesters have continued, as I have described. The same techniques by the central security forces, the riot police, have been.... It's more of the same, and therefore we assess that at best the situation has remained the same.

The political ground has been opened to more inclusion of other political forces, mainly the Muslim Brotherhood, for example, and open to political parties to register and to compete in parliamentary elections and presidential elections. So the political scene might look more plural and open; however, in terms of the track record of the ruling military council, it has been, as I said, more of the same at best.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Since the recent parliamentary elections, has there been a change, not in the regime but in the elected officials, the parties, and their presence? Has there been a change? Are they upholding the rights of minorities and Coptic Christians?

There was talk about amendments to the constitution.

Can you give us an update on where the Parliament is heading in terms of these issues, and are they going to be taking a stand to protect these minorities or are they letting this continue?

1:30 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

The short answer is no, there hasn't been improvement on that side. The parliament is itself on strike at the moment because it is in a sort of wrestling situation with the military council. The parliament wants to blame the government for not fulfilling the demands of the public, and the government sees itself as an interim government that is going to leave very soon anyway.

You are in this situation where there is a political struggle between the ruling military council supporting the actual current government, and the parliament, which tries to put all the blame for failing people's expectations on that government, asking for the government to leave.

We haven't seen many changes from parliament. Parliament started functioning on January 23. It has tried to establish a constitutional committee to write the Egyptian constitution. However, this committee hasn't been inclusive. It doesn't include all of the political sections of society and the political spectrum. Therefore, it lost credibility very quickly in the streets in general, and eventually as a constitutional committee it was disbanded by an administrative court decision.

The main function of the parliament was to establish the committee that was going to draft the constitution, and it has failed in doing so. It has also failed to meet some of the expectations that you mentioned, like equality between all Egyptians, non-discrimination, protection of minorities, but also economic and social rights for the ordinary Egyptian. All of those expectations are still unmet, until now.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you. That's all the time we have for that question.

Mr. Marston, please.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lotfy, I appreciate your testimony. Having firsthand information like this is very, very valuable to this committee.

It strikes me that the world community was somewhat naive. We had a situation where the removal of a leader was called a regime change, and they left all the other folks who did the dirty work pretty much in place.

I was in Saudi Arabia 33 years ago when I first came across conversations about female mutilation. It's shocking that it is still.... I guess we were deceived into believing that Egypt was more progressive than it actually was.

In your testimony you talked about the fact that there was dialogue with all political parties. Did you have a sense coming from that dialogue that they were prepared to abide by international law and uphold it?

1:35 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

I think most parties I have met or have feedback from on the manifesto for change have accepted international law as an obligation that has to be fulfilled, whatever form of government comes next.

One of the Islamic parties has put in question this whole framework of human rights and international obligations and has questioned the credibility and legitimacy of treaties adopted or signed under the rule of Mubarak. Indeed, one of the conventions most attacked in that respect is a convention on the elimination of discrimination against women. A number of parties I have met from an Islamic background have questioned Egypt's adherence to this convention, and they have actually suggested they would try to withdraw from the convention.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Is there a rise in actual fundamentalism compared to what was there before?

1:35 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

It's difficult to say, to be honest. In my view, the democratic processes that started after Mubarak left, in terms of opening the political system to include all political factions, have diminished the tension that existed between the different spectrum of political Islam and the political system itself.

A lot of the formerly detained political prisoners were released, and some of them had belonged to jihadi and Islamist groups, armed groups. Those have been able to form political parties now and run in the parliamentary elections, and they are represented—

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

If I could jump in just for a second, would you have any particular recommendations as to what Canada and our Parliament could do to aid the cause in Egypt, to help it become more progressive?

1:40 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

One of the recommendations that we think is important for Canada to pursue is the freedom of expression and association. We think this is one of the spheres that may be affected by military rule, but also by the mounting force of conservative views of Islam that would forbid some ways of talking or broadcasting or speaking by everybody.

Most recently, there was a ruling of three months in prison against one of the famous Egyptian actors, Adel Imam, for movies that he actually did in the nineties and in the beginning of the year 2000.

It is important to amend the penal code to actually remove all articles that criminalize freedom of expression.

I mentioned association as well. There is a new association law being discussed in parliament. The government proposed a law that would basically nationalize non-governmental organizations, meaning kill them all by making all employees in such NGOs actually in the state, as if they were state employees, and putting in place impossible requirements to operate freely from government interference.

This law has fortunately been fought in parliament by civil society and also by the Muslim Brotherhood, and it was eventually withdrawn.

There are two drafts at the moment. One draft is proposed by civil society itself and one is proposed by the Muslim Brotherhood. It's important that both of them feed into a discussion that would guarantee freedom of association and independent NGOs operating in the country, without banning foreign funding to such NGOs and without interference from the government over registration or allowing the government to dissolve such NGOs. That's whether it's on the basis of security grounds, as the current military likes to call it, or on the basis of moral grounds, as some political parties from political Islam would like to call it.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Mr. Sweet, you're next.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the spirit of what Mr. Marston started with, certainly it's easy to feel a little bit discouraged when there was so much hope. Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr. Lotfy.

Can you tell me if the Freedom and Justice Party is essentially the Muslim Brotherhood?

1:40 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

The Freedom and Justice Party is a political party that was established and is in a way the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood movement.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

They were the party that did not sign a manifesto?

1:40 p.m.

Researcher, Middle East and North Africa Programme, International Secretariat, Amnesty International

Mohamed Lotfy

They have not given us any feedback on the manifesto.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Does the Freedom and Justice Party intend to run...are they running a presidential candidate?