Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

There is no comparison at all.

[Dr. Robert R. King]

Yes, the difference between North Korea and South Korea is dramatic.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It was shocking to see. It really touches you. Even though they're very aggressive people, it's sad to see people living in that state.

[Dr. Robert R. King]

South Korea has a population twice the size of North Korea's—it's almost 50 million, as opposed to 24 million in the north—but the difference in the gross domestic product between North Korea and South Korea is also dramatic: South Korea's GDP is 20 times the size of North Korea's. This tells you something about the problems there.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

[Dr. Robert R. King]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We turn now to Mr. Albrecht.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Your Excellency, for being with us today. Certainly your comments about the current situation in North Korea are very troubling. I don't think any of us can possibly imagine what conditions must be like there.

The subcommittee, prior to my being part of it, had recommended that a commission of inquiry be set up to go into North Korea. Recently we had officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade here at our committee. It was pointed out to us that there are a number of factors that would probably not promote the idea of an inquiry being successful. First of all, what additional information would be gained in addition to what the rapporteur is collecting? Second, we know that North Korea would not grant access to a commission of inquiry. Third was a concern that even with a request to the U.N. to grant such an inquiry, the other bodies there would probably use their veto power to not allow it to happen.

There is a report coming up from the special rapporteur that I understand is to be released in March 2013. I'm wondering, Mr. Ambassador, what your expectations are. I know that it's hard to speculate. What are your expectations in terms of the utility of that report? Will it help us move forward in addressing the issues we're facing in North Korea?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

As I mentioned, there are two special rapporteurs who have reported on North Korea under the United Nations procedures. One of them was an Indonesian law professor, Vitit Muntarbhorn. He served for the first four or five years there was a special rapporteur. He was succeeded a couple of years ago by Marzuki Darusman, who is a former Indonesian government official who was, I think, the justice minister and was also involved in the human rights commission there.

I think the value of the reports these men have produced is in the fact that they are independent observers who have background and stature and recognition, and they are identifying serious human rights violations in these countries.

You mentioned the difficulty of their being allowed to enter North Korea. Both of them have requested permission to visit North Korea. They have been ignored or denied. They nonetheless have continued. They've met with refugees in South Korea. They've met with Japanese government officials. They've met with others in many other areas. The credibility of the reports they have produced is an important element in calling attention to the human rights violations there.

There will be a report by the special rapporteur presented in March in Geneva, as you mentioned. There will also be one presented next week in New York at the General Assembly.

I think these reports are important. They haven't produced dramatic change, but we need to continue to press on human rights even though we don't get immediate positive results.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

On that point, I just want to say that I admire your and other people's perseverance and patience with the very slow progress being made.

If you were to outline three or four steps the international community could take or that Canada itself could cooperate with the U.S. and other allies in taking, what are some key elements, in addition to some things you have mentioned—sanctions, and so on—that could bring a positive change about?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

In dealing with human rights, one thing we need to do is make sure on the one hand that we continue to criticize and call attention to the problems. We need to continue doing that. On the other hand, I think there is merit and value in engaging the North Koreans and in trying to do some of the kinds of things the University of British Columbia is doing. We need to try to give North Koreans an idea of what it's like to be in a free society like Canada. I think this provides an opportunity for people to see what it means to have access to these human rights, and that affects what goes on in the country.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

On the point of the professors visiting UBC, that was new to me. I'm wondering how comfortable the government of North Korea is granting people of that stature access to foreign countries. Are there not fears of defections and so on? What's the track record on that?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

It's important for North Koreans to have some sense of how the world works. If North Korea is going to improve its economy—and they indicate they want to improve the economy—and if they're going to attract foreign investment, they need to have people who understand western economies and western business practices, so I think it's valuable and useful from the point of view of the government to see those kinds of things.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

But understanding the restrictions on information flowing in and out, I'm surprised that.... Is there no restriction on people coming from North Korea to other countries for exchange purposes or whatever?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

There are limits on people who are allowed to leave North Korea. You have to have permission. Only certain people are allowed to go. There is usually an effort to have someone keep an eye on them. You never meet with a North Korean alone; you always meet with two North Koreans, and they report on you. I think that's part of how that process works, but I think it's worth doing.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We move now to Madame St-Denis, s'il vous plaît.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I want to come back to the results of those programs.

You say that Canada should continue with those programs. Are there any reports on how North Koreans react when they come here? We, in the western world, will say that they come here to see what we do and that this is good.

Let's take, for example, the Montreal Hasidic community, which is in the middle of the city. Its members see everything that goes on around them, but are completely unaffected by our ways of doing things.

So we don't know how North Koreans react. We are asking ourselves the following question: Do they react positively? Do they want to leave the country or are they completely unaffected by those programs?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

We have some experience with the former Soviet Union, and there were a number of occasions when Soviet citizens came to the United States to study. The effect was dramatic in terms of changing their view of the world. All of them went back to the Soviet Union, and some of them went back to work for the KGB, but they all had a different view of the United States because they had been in the United States studying.

Over time, we have seen what has happened to those people, particularly since the Soviet Union disappeared in 1991, and the effect of these people having some sense, some idea of what was going on outside, was extremely useful, extremely important. I think it's important that we do this.

Here is another example: one of the people who visited the United States and spent some time looking at different parts of our country was the last white president of South Africa. As a young man, he came to the United States, where race relations were very different from what they were in South Africa. I'd like to think that the effect of seeing what happens.... Our record on race relations is certainly not without its flaws; nonetheless, he went back to South Africa with a different view of the world. I don't think that people who come to Canada or the United States from a country like North Korea are going to go back and not be affected by what they see.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Do I have time for another question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You still have two minutes.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I will change the subject a little bit.

Will the recent rise in the tensions between China and Japan negatively affect the multilateral efforts to prevent an agreement on nuclear weapons in North Korea? In other words, will it undermine those efforts?

If so, in what way, especially when it comes to human rights, will that affect the international approach when it comes to the United States' commitment regarding North Korea?

[Dr. Robert R. King]

The territorial differences are very complicated, but it's extremely important in terms of what we have been doing with North Korea to work together with other countries. The principal countries that have been involved are the so-called six parties—North and South Korea, as well as the United States, China, Japan, and Russia. These six countries represent the countries with the strongest interest in stability in northeast Asia, but other countries can play, and have played, an important role in helping defuse situations in that part of the world.

I think Canada is one of the countries that can play a role, and it would be helpful to have Canada playing a role in that process.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Given the serious human rights violations being committed in North Korea, what is the American government position on whether the international community should bring up the responsibility to protect doctrine?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Could you repeat the last part of your question?