Evidence of meeting #68 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nevsun.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you Mr. Chair.
I thank our witness for his presence here today.
In your view, could the United Nations Guiding Principles on Human Rights urge mining companies operating in Eritrea to ensure they do not contribute to human rights violations?
Are there particular principles that you think are most important in the Eritrean context?
1:45 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
There are numerous human rights issues in Eritrea with the national service program, but our research focused mainly on the treatment of workers for Segen, looking at the forced nature of the employees. Certainly that is what our recommendations have focused on: ensuring that forced labour does not happen, and ensuring that the conditions for the workers are appropriate and in line with international best practice and with what we'd expect here in Canada.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you.
As I understand, individuals, communities or interest groups are not in a position to freely voice any concern they may have regarding mining operations in Eritrea.
Do you have any suggestions for ways that mining companies operating in Eritrea could ensure that locally engaged staff and communities are able to make these companies aware of human rights violations, labour, social or environmental concerns?
1:50 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
Certainly, if you're going to do business with a dictator, it's going to be very challenging. What we'd like to see.... As I mentioned, Nevsun and other Canadian companies have a lot of leverage. Eritrea is financially desperate right now. They have no capacity to develop these mining sites themselves. As such, the Canadian companies—or companies from wherever—can ensure and demand that there be opportunities for individuals who are working for either Nevsun or for the subcontractors to express their grievances and to be protected, and for those grievances to be dealt with in an appropriate manner. That's not to say that it will be easy to do such a thing, in a repressive environment like Eritrea's. All we can ask is that they try to undertake that process.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you.
You spoke about voluntary corporate social responsibility standards.
Are they sufficient? What more Canada should do?
1:50 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
We would certainly like to see Canada have the legal right to monitor the operations of a company such as Nevsun or any company that's working in a repressive environment such as Eritrea's, at an absolute minimum.
We'd also like to see Canada have the ability to regulate those companies and their human rights performance to ensure that Canadian companies abroad are falling in line with what we would expect here in Canada.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you Mr. Horne.
Thank you Mr. Chair.
If I have some time left, I'll give it to Ms. Péclet.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you very much for your appearance today.
We had a representative from Nevsun come to testify in front of the committee—I don't recall when. I was reading in the news that the company is 50% Canadian-owned but that the other 50% belongs to the Government of Eritrea; it's like a kind of partnership with the Government of Eritrea.
Do you think it's ethical for a company that knows this is the second most militarized country and one of the worst countries for respecting human rights to share ownership with a government of that type, sharing the profits fifty-fifty? We all know that the profits are probably not going to the Eritrean people but are going to buy military accessories.
1:50 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
That's a difficult question. We don't know a lot about how that sort of business arrangement was arrived at and what sort of leverage Nevsun had prior to going into business with the Government of Eritrea. But certainly, as I mentioned earlier, being in a relationship with a repressive government limits your ability to bring about some positive change.
It's our understanding that 60% of the company is owned by Nevsun Resources.
No, it definitely makes for a challenging situation.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
There are some problems with the identification of workers. We know that military service is obligatory in Eritrea. The company says it verifies the certificates of the workers saying that they are not doing military service.
Do you have any proof of how the company functions and how the military certificates are issued? There are probably some issues about this too.
1:50 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
We don't have too many details, unfortunately, about this latest screening process that Nevsun is undertaking. Certainly, if you're not allowed access to the individuals who supposedly have these demobilization certificates to interview them openly, confidentially, etc., there are lots of opportunities for misuse of those certificates and what they're supposed to represent.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you, Ms. Péclet.
Mr. Horne, I had actually intended at this point to go back to Ms. Grewal, who was asking a question about religious liberty but ran out of time. I gather she had to leave to go to an S.O. 31 in the House.
I have a couple of questions, if I may. The first one is to follow up on what she was saying about the whole question of religious liberty.
We asked questions earlier, when Alex Neve was here, on the subject. I asked him about religious liberty. It was a very odd mixture of religions that were permitted but were not permitted, and I said I had never seen anything like this. I'm used to seeing some place where we have one permitted religion and that's it. Seeing four.... And it's an unusual mixture of four; I was specifically curious as to how the Lutherans got in there.
I've since had the chance to chat with someone who is an Eritrean living in Canada, who suggested that this is all really about trying to keep Pentecostalism from spreading, because it is something that is not a centrally controlled religious movement. I have no idea whether that's correct; I only have that one piece of information passed on to me.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
1:55 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
We haven't done any research into the religious intolerance issue. I imagine it also stems from the religions that were in place when Eritrea became a country. But beyond that, I'm not really sure.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Okay, thank you. That remains a bit of a mystery and perhaps is not totally germane to the question of mining. I want to ask some other questions, though, if you don't mind.
Do you have any information on the Eritrean government's involvement in the trafficking of persons that you would be able to share with us?
1:55 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
We're in the process of doing some research on that issue. It's an issue of huge concern.
Many individuals leaving Eritrea, fleeing across the border, are being picked up in some of the refugee camps on the Sudan side of the border. Some are paying to be trafficked, and others are paying to be transferred, largely to Israel.
Others are being kidnapped and trafficked and sent along the way through different hands until they get to the Sinai peninsula. There are a number of strong allegations of these Eritreans being tortured in the Sinai peninsula and of family members in the West being pressured into providing payments to the smugglers in exchange for the Eritreans' release, at which point they go into Israel.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
So it's a form of a “kidnapping for cash” arrangement under way.
There is an issue of illegal immigrants, who are described normally in news reports as “Africans”, coming into Israel, and there has been, I gather, some kind of recent agreement with the Egyptian government trying to firm up the border and prevent this from occurring.
Are those primarily Eritreans who are coming into Israel across the Sinai, then?
1:55 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
As I mentioned, we're doing some research on it, and hopefully in the next few months we'll be able to answer those questions with much more accuracy and precision. But as far as we understand, yes, it is primarily Eritreans who are making it across into Israel.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Turning back to the issue of mining, and particularly to the whole concept of corporate social responsibility, Nevsun has indicated that they have a self-auditing process to make sure they meet certain internal standards of behaviour in the treatment of their employees. They have a limited amount of information on their website. I have to assume they have a more complete internal document that we do not possess.
The question I have here is first whether you have any further information on this or have any thoughts as to whether such standards should be made public—and if so, how—both for Nevsun and for other companies that might find themselves operating in Eritrea. Of course, I'm also thinking a little bit more broadly of Canadian-based or -traded companies that find themselves operating in other parts of the world. Eritrea may be a worst case, but it's not a unique situation.
1:55 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
We don't have any additional information on their CSR initiatives beyond what they've shared with us or with this committee.
Some of the utterances of Nevsun about the lack of ability they have to engage with the Government of Eritrea and to engage with their subcontractor would set off some alarm bells for me in terms of those CSR numbers. What is their methodology? Are they free to genuinely collect this information, or is it all just a case of trying to get some numbers on a piece of paper to show that they are doing something? I think those would be excellent questions to ask Nevsun.
Voluntary disclosure and voluntary monitoring of processes are the first step. We would like governments, including the Canadian government, to take it one step further and actually do some monitoring themselves, or at least ensure that the methodology being used is sound and that they are genuinely trying to minimize their adverse impacts.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I gather there's a set of standards in process right now called the guiding principles on business and human rights. They're being developed. These are the UN Human Rights Council's principles that can assist mining companies operating in places like Eritrea to ensure they don't contribute in some way or other to human rights violations.
Are you familiar with this? Do you think this sort of thing attempts to create standards internationally that could be applied and, I assume, externally audited? Do you think that has merit? And do you have any further comments as to how the maximum benefit could be achieved from that process?
2 p.m.
Researcher, Horn of Africa, Human Rights Watch
Certainly the human rights obligations of corporations in international law are a little bit murky, to say the least, so certainly guiding principles like that set are a step in the right direction. But I guess we do feel ultimately that it is up to states to ensure that corporate entities that are operating within their borders are complying with some of these big-picture, overarching principles. So it's a step in the right direction, but we would hope that Canada could push Nevsun to improve its record in Eritrea.