Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 5th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

I'd like to call this meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development to order.

This is meeting number 70, Tuesday, March 5, 2013. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the persecution of the Copt community in Egypt.

We have from the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies, Nadine Sherif Wahab, international advocacy officer.

Welcome. Can you hear me okay?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab, International Advocacy Officer, Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

My name is Wayne Marston. I'm the vice-chair of the subcommittee. Our chair is just a little bit delayed, but we will get started just because our time is so short.

I understand that you had a bit of a drive to get in, a little bit of a complication. It is 8 o'clock there, is it?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Yes, it is.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

If you'd like to proceed, you can make your statement. We usually have about 10 minutes for that, and then we'll have questions by committee members.

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Perfect.

I have a little bit of documentation, which I will forward to the committee.

Good afternoon, and thank you for inviting me and the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies to speak to you on the issue of religious minorities, especially the Coptic Christians in Egypt.

While the situation for religious minorities in Egypt is very serious, the issue was just as problematic under the Mubarak regime. The issue was, and continues to be, mainly the impunity of sectarian violence rather than specific legal restrictions on religious minorities. This is especially true of violence against the Coptic community. Sectarian violence was not uncommon prior to Mubarak's ouster. In 2010 alone, we had at least six instances of sectarian violence.

On January 6, 2010, in Nag Hammadi, a drive-by shooting on Coptic Orthodox Christians as they were leaving Christmas mass killed six Christians and a Muslim police officer and wounded several more. In the following days, fighting ensued between Muslims and Christians in the surrounding villages, ending with a Christian woman being killed on January 9, 2010.

On January 13, 2010, in Mersa Matruh, an imam incited 250 to 300 Muslims to attack a Coptic Christian church.

On September 10 that same year in Cairo, Egyptian police reportedly utilized excessive force on Christian demonstrators protesting the government's refusal of a licence to build a church extension. Two people were killed and dozens were wounded.

In November 2010 in Qena, more than a dozen Coptic Christian homes and businesses were burned and looted. Security officials imposed a curfew and arrested several Muslims, but no one has been charged.

On November 24, 2010 in Giza, police halted construction on a church-owned building, instigating a clash between police, Muslim bystanders, and Coptic Christians. Two Christians were killed, dozens injured, and more than 150 people were detained.

Most notably, on New Year's Eve, in a lead up to the Egyptian revolution in Alexandria, the bombing of Two Saints Church occurred as Coptic Christians exited a New Year's Eve service. The attack killed 23 people and triggered Christian protests in the streets as well as violence between some Muslims and Christians. This could arguably be viewed as one of the triggers for the January 25 protest that led to the ouster of President Mubarak.

You can find these incidents and much more in the fact sheet on human rights violence and sectarian violence in Egypt. But the problem is more far-reaching than just the Coptic community. It affects the most vulnerable religious communities, and especially those who profess their faith.

The Bahá'í community, which has approximately 5 million followers worldwide, is estimated to be about 2,000 in Egypt. Bahá'ís in Egypt had been tolerated for decades until the passing of Law 263 in 1960, which dissolved Bahá'í spiritual assemblies and institutions. While this law did not criminalize adherents to the Bahá'í faith, it has opened the door for security agencies to subject Bahá'ís in Egypt to harassment, discrimination, and detention, in violation of the constitution and international human rights.

For years, the Egyptian government denied Bahá'ís the right to be recognized on legal official documentation, such as national identification cards, birth certificates, and death certificates. This policy has had serious consequences for the everyday lives of the Bahá'í community. Without this documentation they were left with no official recognition of their marriages and could not receive birth certificates for their children unless they chose to be identified as Christian or Muslim.

In 2009, with the identification issue resolved, identification documents may now include a dash in place of one of the three recognized religions, which are Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. This solution still leaves the Bahá'í and other religious minorities unrecognized by the government, which continues to recognize only the three Abrahamic faiths.

While this situation has been resolved, there are some indications that it may become an issue again. Recently the Egyptian minister of education stated that the Bahá'í can go to public school, but will be forced to either attend Christian or Muslim religious classes.

Religious persecution also extends to the Shiite community. The recent case of Mohamed Asfour, a Hazari Shiite clerk, is a prime example. He was sentenced to a year in prison and a fine of more than £100,000 this past July. He was charged with contempt of religion and desecration of a mosque in his area.

His crime was praying in a mosque according to the Shiite faith and representing Shiite viewpoints. He allegedly used a prayer stone, as is seen within the Shiite tradition, which is frowned upon in Sunni Islam. Also, Asfour's in-laws and local Salafis demanded that his wife ask for a divorce, which she did.

There was also an incident on December 5, 2011, when seven Shia were detained as they celebrated Ashura, the day of mourning.

Not only are there these restrictions on religious practices, but there are also restrictions on political participation. While Sunni-oriented political parties like the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party and the Salafi Nour Party were allowed to register and participate in the last parliamentary elections, a Shia-oriented party, the Tahrir Party, was denied registration.

After the revolution, Sunni Islamist parties came to the forefront of Egyptian politics. They won a majority of the Parliament and the presidency. They also dominated the constitutional assembly. While there are major concerns for the protection of human rights under the constitution, article 3 in the new Egyptian constitution actually affords those practising Abrahamic faiths, including Coptics, Christians, and Jews, more rights than under the Mubarak constitution.

But it does have some drawbacks for other religious minorities. Muslims, Christians, and Jews are afforded the right to use their own authorities for issues pertaining to family law. This was not the case in the 1971 Egyptian constitution. While this is a step in the right direction, this does limit the religious freedom to only Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

One major issue with the constitution is constitutional article 10, which states:

The family is the basis of the society and is founded on religion, morality and patriotism.

The State is keen to preserve the genuine character of the Egyptian family, its cohesion and stability, and to protect its moral values, all as regulated by law.

This could have implications for the non-Abrahamic faiths. This could give the state authority, in an attempt to protect the morality of society, to interfere in private family affairs without reference to the individuals' religious backgrounds. This could also affect, as I have said, most religious minorities like the Bahá'ís and the Shiites.

The issue of religious defamation is also a problem. The prosecution of artists like popular actor Adel Emam, and the death penalty sentence passed down in absentia for the producer of The Innocence of Islam, are prime examples. These cases are prosecuted not for the religious defamation itself, but for the incitement to sectarian violence.

Less known, but just as important, was the case of Alber Saber. On September 14 last year, at 11 p.m., a crowd gathered in front of Alber's apartment. They were overheard debating going into Alber's apartment and killing him. The crowd, consisting mostly of men, went up and tried to break down the front door.

Alber's mother called the police for protection from the now angry mob that was trying to kill her son. When the police came, instead of dispersing the crowd, they arrested Alber, confiscated his computers and CDs without a warrant, and then proceeded to walk him down through the angry crowd. He was attacked in the street in front of his house while in police custody. At the police station, the arresting officer put him in a cell with inmates accused of violent crimes and told them that Alber had insulted Islam and the Prophet. The inmates severely beat him and cut his neck with a razor. Alber was later charged with and convicted of defamation of religion and is currently serving a three-year sentence.

There is also the exclusion of religious minorities from public offices, more specifically the Coptic and Christian community, and there are the issues of building and church renovations.

The issue with church construction dates back to the time of Muhammad Ali. No law regulates the erection of houses of worship. But building a new church in Egypt requires a presidential permit as well as security clearance from the Egyptian state security apparatus. The procedure can take many years winding its way through the Egyptian bureaucracy or may never get approval at all. While this issue is a bureaucratic nightmare, the bigger issue is not the legal barriers to start construction but the impunity of those who have engaged in sectarian violence, as is the recent case with the church in Shubra El-Kheima.

According to the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights, the Diocese of Shubra El-Kheima bought a piece of land and got official licence from the concerned authorities to build on it in August 2011. This was in order to expand the building, which had not yet been completed. In mid-October they began construction and fencing of the entire area. Then at about 10 p.m. on Monday, November 5, according to church officials, a number of Muslims carrying firearms and non-legal weapons illegally assembled in front of the land and attacked the construction workers, expelling them and taking hold of the land. They prayed Isha, sang prayers, and attempted to demolish the concrete columns. The next day, hundreds of Muslims gathered on the property, carrying firearms and chanting against the building of the church in the area. Last month, the Governor of Cairo ordered a temporary halt of construction on the property until a solution could be found in the dispute among local residents.

This case is emblematic of that problems that confront many churches facing reconstruction. The lack of rule of law, transparency, and accountability are issues that affect not only the freedom of religion but also all political and cultural rights in Egypt.

In conclusion, the current polarization of the community into Islamist and non-Islamist may give the impression that this isn't a religious issue. But as the attacks have been not only against Christians but have been most voracious against notable secular Muslims, such as Dr. El Baradei, it is obvious that the use of religious rhetoric is an attempt to monopolize power and not just to protect the Islamic religion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much for your testimony.

Colleagues, we're going to go to six-minute rounds. If we stick to those without going over, we will be able to get everybody out of here in time to get back to the House of Commons for question period.

We'll begin with you, Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Sherif, for your presentation, for staying up late, and for enduring the protests on the way in. We greatly appreciate your spending the time with us and giving us this information.

Your opening remarks were heavily weighted with the fact that a lot of the issue regarding religious freedom has to do with sectarian violence. I concur with you. But there's also a role for the state to make sure that these people are protected.

One of the last things you mentioned was El Baradei's case. They purposely brought this person through the angry mob and then, when he was in a jail cell, made the great statement to the other inmates that he offended Islam.

Do you think this is the same as during the Mubarak days, or has there been an amplification of these kinds of instances regarding the state's impunity—and its lack of intervention as well?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

One issue, and this was most obvious under SCAF rule rather than under the current FJP—which is the Freedom and Justice Party belonging to The Muslim Brotherhood.... It was pretty bad under President Mubarak; it got worse, and seemingly has gotten worse because of the impunity or lack of accountability and lack of rule of law. As I was saying in my statement, the issue is an issue of rule of law and lack of prosecution of those who are committing this violence.

There is obviously accountability on the side of the state. We hold the state accountable, including the Ministry of Interior, in a lot of these issues. They've caused some of these issues and continue to be held culpable on them. But I think there is a distinction, as you saw when I mentioned the Bahá'ís, between the regulatory issues and the allowing of violence that doesn't start with them.

Unlike what happened in Maspero.... Thank you for the opportunity to mention this, because I had forgotten to mention the attack against the Christian protesters in front of the Maspero building where many died. It started a wave of attacks that ended 2011 in rather bloody fashion and then started again, in memory of those attacks, last year.

So yes, there are times when the state is actually culpable, and there have been incidents of state violence against Christians. But this doesn't hold only against the Christian community or in the context of religious freedom; it's also true against a lot of other minorities, and now the opposition as well.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Exactly.

The other thing that seems to be escalating, though it was also true in Mubarak days, is that the police feel no compunction at all concerning restraint; they use violence without any kind of restraint. This administration has not come out directly, either, with a statement publicly that the police use of force is not unlimited; that there are limitations that should govern police behaviour.

Of course, El Baradei's case is one of them. In that case, have you seen an escalation in the police as well as the military in this regard?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Since it stepped down, when President Morsi came into power, the military hasn't really engaged and has taken a much more neutral role.

But as you would have seen if you had been following the clashes in front of the presidential palace last December, the police were present within earshot of a lot of the attacks against the protesters by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamists—against the opposition, not just the Coptic community—and did nothing and therefore are culpable for some of that. Some of the violence included torture chambers right in front of the gates, in which they were torturing members of the opposition, demanding that they admit they had received money and were spies, etc. There are videos online showing proof that they were doing this.

So yes, I think the police are culpable, and there has been, I don't want to say an escalation, but a lack of ability to engage, and maybe even a lack of willingness to stop such violence and do their job.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'd like to ask you personally whether, being a champion there in the midst of all this, you fear for your own safety.

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Yes, at times I do, actually. I engage in international advocacy; therefore I can be, at any point.... This kind of work, talking to the Canadian House of Commons, talking to the U.S. State Department, puts me at risk. But also, being a woman on the streets I'm constantly at risk.

I'm secular, but of the Muslim faith, which puts me.... One of my roommates most recently was Christian. One of the things we would put up with every Friday was a Salafi mosque near my house basically calling for people to commit violence or hate, spewing hate messages against me and my roommate, both clumped in together.

I want to point out that this is not a Coptic Christian versus Islamist situation. This is a use of violent rhetoric by one community to paint the entire opposition, whether Muslim, Christian, Bahá'í, or Shiite, as blasphemers and therefore not worthy of engaging in Egyptian politics.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly appreciate your being here. I want to tag on to what you're talking about in regard to women in particular.

We've heard some disturbing reports about violent sexual assaults against female protestors in Egypt. Do you have any information on this that you could share with us?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Yes. It's a very touching and touchy subject for me.

Tahrir Square has now become a place that is very unwelcoming to women protestors. I've heard this over and over again from human rights defenders. I actually spent most of 2011 in a tent in the square. I was one of those people who said that women needed to be there, even if it meant giving up a little time off work, because of the importance of having both genders engaging in this...and the lack of ability for us due to some community or societal restraints.

Now it has become a very ugly space. You have violence against women, including—and I apologize for the descriptor—vaginal penetration of women using knives, and the abduction of women. You have gangs pulling women aside saying “We'll protect you, we'll protect you, we'll protect you”, and then stuffing them into trunks. When I was in Tahrir late last year, I personally saw a group around a woman, who was then flung onto my tent. The tent collapsed and then the crowd trampled her and everyone else nearby, including trampling one of my friends.

The escalation from harassment to rape is quite alarming—and for almost all activists. It has now become a tool of political terrorism to stop women from engaging in these public spaces, and to limit the opposition, which includes a very strong base in the feminist community and women's activist groups, from engaging in politics. This has become really problematic, and the use of violence against us has created an environment where it has become very difficult for me, for example, to walk down from my work, which is three blocks from Tahrir, and cross the street to go to a friend's house, which is on the other side of Tahrir.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Well, thank you for that.

I know it's very personal for you, I can see that in your commentary.

Is any minority group of religious women more affected or targeted than others, or is it general in nature? Is it just towards the activist groups?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

I think it's towards the opposition and those who are in the street. If you remember—I actually think it was at the beginning of 2012—there was the infamous blue bra girl incident, where a girl was dragged across the square. She was a muhajaba, so she was a Muslim and outwardly expressing her religiosity.

They have targeted secular Muslims, and they have targeted Christians. There have been a couple of incidents where teachers have cut unveiled women's hair. So there has been some sectarian twist to it, but these women were not necessarily Christian. In fact, secular Muslims are more likely to be targeted for showing their hair or not adhering to the orthodoxy of the Muslim faith than Christians. I remember during the Maspero incident, and this was not necessarily to do with women, where we were asked if we were Muslim or Christian.

It seems to be that where the anger is going, the community sort of flows with it. Right now, the anger is targeting women, and it doesn't seem to have a very sectarian twist to it. But it is one of the ways they're limiting engagement, whether you're talking about the Christian community or the feminist community, in the revolution.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

How's my time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have another minute and a half.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay.

One of the things that's of interest to me is the performance of Egyptian security, or the Egyptian police, and public prosecutors when they're investigating these attacks, particularly the ones against women. Is the treatment comparable to that if a male were attacked?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

The cases of attacks against women are very difficult. There's very little rule of law right now. Unless there's a specific interest in the case, there's very little follow-up on the attacks on protestors, and specifically on women. But some of the escalation of the issues around women seems to have some pull with the public prosecutor. As we bring these issues up in the international community, it seems to push the Egyptian government to take some actions. You saw this with the virginity tests in March 2011, with a court case that stopped...and then afterwards it was called to a stop in all military investigations, or all military interactions with citizens. So there are spaces where you find that there can be improvement. But no, I don't think there's any difference between attacks against women and the public prosecutor.

And the issue with attacks against women specifically is that rape cases, whether we're talking about the U.S., Canada, or anywhere in the world, are very difficult to prosecute because of the “he said, she said” nature of these attacks and, more importantly in Egypt, because of how sensitive the issue is. Some of these girls do not want to be persecuted within the context of the court system; therefore, they're not necessarily willing to come forward within the context of the legal system.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's been an international problem for many generations.

I think that probably takes up my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

It does, yes.

We go next to Ms. Grewal, please.