Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 5th, 2013

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you, Ms. Sherif, for your time and your presentation.

Egypt is expected to hold legislative elections beginning in April. To your knowledge are there any Coptic Christians or other religious minorities running for office? Is it possible for religious minorities to run for office?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Yes, Coptic Christians are free to run for office. The issue with some of the party lists, and it's the same issue with women, is that the domination at the top of the lists is generally Muslim and male; therefore, it's very unlikely that someone will be voted in. In the last Parliament, there were 10 women and Christians who were elected, who are in Parliament. I think some of them were even appointed. Some of them were both women and Christians, therefore filling both slots at the same time. So no, there are a lot of electoral issues around elections and the Christian community.

As for your question on whether I know who's running, there haven't been announcements of nominations yet, so I'm not sure who's running.

I'd like to also note that the churches all withdrew from the last constitutional assembly, and the opposition now has said that it will boycott the election, so we're waiting to see if the Coptic community and the Christian community will also follow suit.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Could you please tell our committee what exactly foreign development agencies in Egypt are doing to help the Coptic Christians in that area? Have they been successful in making some sort of dialogue with the religious extremist groups?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

I know that the focus of the session is on the Coptic community, but at the current time I think it's less an issue within the context of the Coptic community and more an issue of the Islamists—whether extremists or those who are just supporting political Islam—and the secularist Muslims, including some of the Christians and some of the other opposition. I think the current polarization makes it very difficult for any organization to really function within the concept of any kind of anti-sectarian or interfaith dialogue.

I remember—and I'm going to use a personal anecdote—having conversations in 2011 with Salafi protestors in Tahrir about how we can work together, and that seems to have fallen apart. They are no longer engaged in some of the same organizing work that some of the other opposition are, and there seems to be a divide, a chasm, building between them.

Speaking of international organizations, one of the issues that I will take this opportunity to bring up is the NGO law. The current formation or draft law presented in the Shura Council will make it very difficult for almost any international organization to function in Egypt. Actually, most domestic organizations will also have a very difficult time functioning.

International funding will have to go through the government. Registration of international NGOs, rather than notification, will become the law. Even for domestic NGOs, all their funding will become nationalized and their employees will fall within the context of the Egyptian government's authority, making them no longer NGOs but just government organizations that provide charity and development.

The activities of international NGOs will have to be approved by the government, which is going to be particularly problematic for those dealing with sectarian issues, especially if we have one of the parties in power. I call on the House of Commons to urge the Egyptian government to retract the FJP NGO law and for it to look at a more progressive law. This may have some serious implications, both for my organization and other organizations.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Ms. Sherif, could you please explain to the committee the political dynamics behind the constitutional drafting crisis in late 2012? To your knowledge will the new constitution continue to discriminate against the Coptic Christians and other religious minorities in Egypt? Also, can you please explain why some suggest that sharia law in Egypt's constitution will continue to create tension between religious groups?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

Could you do that in one minute, please.

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

I will try, but that's a rather long question.

Yes, there are some issues with religious minorities in the new constitution. But as I stated in my opening statement, this constitution offers a little more protection for Christians and Jews than the previous one. The issue around sharia law is the interpretation of law based around sharia jurisprudence. Fortunately—and I'm not an expert on sharia jurisprudence—there are some protections offered for the Christian community, even outside this specific article. I think you're talking about article 221 in particular.

The other article that will be problematic is article 10, because the protection of morality doesn't necessarily mean the protection of morality within the context of all three Abrahamic religions. It doesn't specify that this protection of morality can have an adverse effect on religious minorities.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

I appreciate that, thank you.

We'll now move to Mr. McKay of the Liberal Party.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you again for speaking to us Ms. Sherif.

Is there a hierarchy of persecution, in other words from the least oppressed to most oppressed, either between secular and religious groups or within the religious groups...?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

I think that those who practise the Abrahamic faiths within the religious context would receive the most protection, both because they're afforded protections under sharia and the constitution. The constitution and the Egyptian government do not recognize an atheist, someone who denounces their religion, or any other non-Abrahamic religions. There has been persecution of the Shiite community, as I said in my opening statement.

While there is sectarian violence against the Christian community by certain segments of the Salafi community and those who profess or adhere to the more extremist tendencies within the Salafi community, I think it's important to note that within that hierarchy in government protection, more protection is afforded to the Christian community than for some other communities.

Women, I would say, are also one of the groups that are constantly under attack. If we're looking at a hierarchy of oppression, I would probably say that some of the rural communities are afforded the least protection. That's because there's the least amount of outreach of law and order within these communities and they're more traditional in solving these problems. That's where you'll find most of the issues with the Coptic community.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

There is, if you will, almost a religious hierarchy here. They put the Shiites in with atheists and Bahá’i as, in effect, blasphemers?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Yes, some do. Even though the Al-Azhar does provide them the right to exist and does recognize them, a lot of the Egyptians and the majority of the Sunni community do not recognize the Twelvers Shia community.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I don't know this, but I'm assuming that as secular Muslim, you would have greater protection than, say, Christians or Jews in Egypt.

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

No. I'm a woman and therefore choose not to cover my hair. I don't have the protection of being from a different faith. I'm not currently expected to do anything, but I could be expected to cover my hair. There's a difference between violations by the state or impunity from violations by non-state entities. From non-state entities, I feel under just as much duress as everyone else, and I think that goes across the board. I'm given some leeway, for example, by conservative Muslims when I'm walking in the street because they just assume that I'm a Christian. That will give you a lead into that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

There's a bit of an irony there.

My second question has to do with the personal safety of foreigners. What are your observations regarding foreigners who choose to go to Egypt for whatever reason, be it business, tourism, or whatever?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

Other than their being targeted at certain points...and what I mean by that is the targeting of reporters in Tahrir, where they're in a very volatile situation.... The same, I have to say, is true of anyone who looks foreign. Even though I'm Egyptian, because of my demeanour and having grown up and been abroad most of my life, everyone just assumes, until I start speaking in Arabic, that I'm a foreigner and would treat me thus.

Foreigners do have some issues, but walking around outside these flash zones, I think, is pretty safe. There have been cases of abduction in the Sinai, but this isn't new; these incidents have happened throughout the last two decades, but have returned. This is more an issue of a Bedouin-to-state negotiations than specific attacks on foreigners.

Other than the cases of rape that happened in Tahrir, outside the context of those very volatile areas, there haven't been too many attacks on foreigners.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That was the final question.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

That was the final question.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

Mr. Schellenberger, please.

[Gary Schellenberger, Perth—Wellington, CPC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Reid, for your intervention today. It was great.

When you get to this point in the questioning, a lot of the most prevalent questions have been asked already. So if my comments do overlap with some of those questions, please excuse me.

Both Sunni and Shiites are Muslims. What is the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

I'm not a religious expert. It's an historical difference, starting practically with the line of descendants of the Caliphate, with Ali being the one who was supposed to take over or follow the Prophet in heading the Muslim community. This was the initial conflict or break. That's a very historical question. The main difference, in practical terms, is prayer. There's a slightly different manner of prayer, and there are adherents to certain rules and regulations, and specifically jurisprudence.

To me, as a secular person, no I don't see a difference. There are four different sets of jurisprudence within Islam, and I don't really understand why there's such strife. It's more of a political power play than it is a religious question.

[Gary Schellenberger]

Are the Shiites looked at in the same way as the Coptic Christians in Egypt?

[Nadine Sherif Abdel Wahab]

No. The Shiite community is viewed by a wide swath of the Sunni community as just another sect within Islam. In Egypt in particular, and in some other countries such as Saudi Arabia and Bahrain—and this is an aspect of the conflict in Bahrain—they're viewed a being slightly outside the context and as non-believers. They are therefore worse than the Christian community, because all sects and all jurisprudence accept the Christian community and their own practices. It's within sharia law that they have to accept them.

Shiites are accepted by Al-Azhar and the formal Islamic community, but some sects like the Wahhabi sect and some of the more extremist communities like the Salafi community do not accept Shiites at all as being believers and, therefore, believe that they fall outside the protection of the Abrahamic faiths.

[Gary Schellenberger]

In your talk, you mentioned at different times that “they” have done this or that. Who are “they”? Are “they” the government, or a particular group of people?