Evidence of meeting #74 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Kergin  As an Individual
Sonia Wayand  Assistant, As an Individual
Rolando Sierra  As an Individual

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Order, please. We are the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today is March 26, 2013, and we are holding our 74th meeting.

We welcome our witness, in person, Michael Kergin. We may or may not be able to get our other witness, Rolando Sierra, who is also scheduled to attend. He is in Tegucigalpa and we are trying to reach him by teleconference, not video conference.

Unfortunately, there's a technical issue right now, colleagues. We may have to disrupt our process and reconfigure, for which I apologize to everybody. That may cause me to have to make some changes on the fly with regard to the length of questions and all of that stuff. I know you're all very consensual about this. Please bear with me and with each other. If it looks like I'm getting it wrong, don't be shy about mentioning it.

Without further ado, let's go to the witness we do have here in person.

Mr. Kergin, we're very glad to have you here, and we invite you to begin your testimony.

March 26th, 2013 / 1:05 p.m.

Michael Kergin As an Individual

Thank you very much, Chair.

As I mentioned to the clerk of the committee, I really have to confine my remarks I think to the role and the time that I was involved in the truth and reconciliation commission that was mandated and sat from April 2010 to July 2011.

I have not followed Honduran events since that time. One moves on to other things, I guess. I will make comments about the commission, about it's principal findings, it's principal recommendations, and an evaluation of the commission work as it relates to the human rights situation we were looking at.

The truth and reconciliation commission was established by the Government of Honduras, by President Pepe Lobo. Most truth and reconciliation commissions are established by a government; otherwise they would not have an opportunity to get into the records and have as much freedom of movement.

It was a simple mandate really to examine the events leading up to the July 28, 2009, expulsion of President Zelaya, and then to present recommendations to ensure that such events, such a failure of governance, would not happen again.

Interestingly enough, human rights per se or an investigation of human rights per se were not a formal part of the mandate as it was established by the decree.

The commission itself met for about 450 days with the five commissioners. I was the Canadian commissioner, the chair was Guatemalan, one other commissioner was a former minister of justice of Peru and a supreme court justice herself, and then there were two Honduran commissioners—one was the current, at that time, president of the national university and the other was her predecessor. Interestingly enough, each of these two Honduran commissioners had contacts on either side of the political centre, so they were really well connected from left to right.

The commission visited all 18 Honduran provinces and held over 300 meetings, including 20 town halls of people in the very small pueblos or towns around the country. They received testimony from about 150 personalities that were linked to the events of the time of the coup. They collected some 50,000 pages of documentation and stored about 900 items in the video tech; many of our interviews were actually videoed.

The total budget was about $2.5 million for the commission, which by most accounts is not a large amount of money. The commission, however, decided on its own that it was very important to look at the human rights aspects of the situation, in particular during the interim government of Mr. Micheletti. The commission contracted four human rights experts who were selected by the United Nations development program. That was financed by the European Union. They were separate but reported to us, and we took over and put into our own words their report to us.

Those experts operated for about one year and received confidential testimony from approximately 250 victims of alleged human rights abuses. They travelled around the country, as did we, but separately.

The opposition in Honduras, called La Resistencia, established its own what was called Comision de la Verdad, or truth commission. Our commission did attempt several times to contact them to see if we could cooperate together, but for reasons that only that commission best knows, they decided they would prefer to operate on their own, and in fact I believe they did a separate report completely from ours.

Briefly, the key findings from our truth and reconciliation commission found that the forceable removal and extradition of President Zelaya constituted a definite coup d'état. The executive and legislative judicial branches, however, all transgressed the constitution leading up to, during, and after the coup. It was basically a failure of government by the three branches of government.

Micheletti became de facto president on the expulsion of President Zelaya, and he stayed there until the inauguration of President Lobo—the election was in November—in January of 2010. Given the fact that he actually relinquished power at the time of the elections in November 2010, in what we felt were fair and free elections given the circumstances of Honduras at the time, our conclusion was that the election and government of President Lobo itself should be considered a legitimate government.

We felt from our investigations that both the Zelaya and Micheletti regimes had engaged in certain corrupt practices, and finally that there was a range of human rights abuses, including police violence and murder, that occurred and went unpunished during the Micheletti regime of about five months, from July 2009 to December 2009, the same year.

Our key recommendations covered two basic areas: governance on one side, because we felt that the failure of governance had led to the coup, and on the other side the human rights issues. The key recommendations on governance included the following.

The constitution should be amended to add a procedure for the impeachment of the president and senior officials following due process. One of the problems in the constitution was that there was no legal process to impeach President Zelaya should there have been a reason to do so.

Secondly, consideration should be given to passing legislation to hold a constituent assembly in order to review the entrenched powers of the constitution, including the possibility of presidential re-election. It may be remembered that one of the reasons why the military moved against President Zelaya was the impression—although never proven—that he was seeking a second term.

The third recommendation was that political functions that are undertaken by the military should be removed from their mandate. In the Honduran constitution, the military has certain policing powers that we felt were wrong, and they also had the mandate to distribute ballot boxes during the election and to safeguard the election itself. We felt this was not an appropriate use of the armed forces of Honduras.

Fourth, a judicial tribunal should be established with authority to arbitrate disputes between the executive and legislative branches of government. Honduras, like the United States, has divided powers, which occasionally come into dispute. Unfortunately, the judiciary were unable to deal with this. We felt that a judicial tribunal should be established to arbitrate disputes among the three branches.

Fifth, the political parties' machinery should be reformed so as to ensure financial and electoral transparency while including its caucus members in decision-making. We found that the democratic party structure in Honduras was highly undemocratic in terms of excluding members from participating in caucus and indeed the party leadership determining who should be running in different constituencies rather than having an iterative process between the caucus and the leadership.

Finally, under governance, appointments to high-level judicial and legislative watchdog bodies—for example, the superior tribunal of elections—should be depoliticized and should be on the basis of impartial decisions rather than at the will of political representatives of the governing party.

On the human rights side, the commission came up with seven principal recommendations. The first was that the government should pursue, prosecute, and punish perpetrators of human rights abuses during the Micheletti regime, ensuring, however, that due process is observed to those who are accused of human rights abuses.

Secondly, a national plan of reparations should be established, to include restitution, indemnification, and guarantees of protection against reprisals for those having legitimate and verifiable human rights grievances.

Third, the prosecutor general office should be provided with sufficient resources and independence to enable it to establish an investigating unit to respond promptly to future human rights complaints.

Fourth, the actions of the human rights commissioner during the Micheletti regime should be reviewed by an independent committee of Congress. There was a human rights commissioner throughout the Micheletti period. Our commission felt he had not performed according to the terms of reference.

Fifth, the government should review, and as necessary revise, legislation to ensure compatibility with international norms and standards, especially with respect to personal security related to freedom of expression, particularly for journalists, and freedom of association. We felt that the Honduran legislation was lacking in terms of international norms and standards.

Sixth, access by tribal and indigenous people to justice in their own language should be guaranteed. In the Mosquito area, on the coast of Honduras, which we visited, a number of the aboriginal peoples were complaining about not being able to receive justice in their own language.

Finally, the government should ensure compliance with the International Labour Organization convention regarding the duty to consult about the use and exploitation of natural resources in aboriginal territories—a problem I'm sure you're aware of, which is very much indigenous to Central America, where mining companies do not always respect the laws of the aboriginal areas.

Let me give, then, a final brief evaluation of the human rights section of our report.

Internationally, and to some extent domestically, interest in the work and findings of the commission centred on its examination of the human rights situation in the period July 28, 2009, to January 18, 2010, the inauguration of Pepe Lobo. The commission concluded that violations were broadly prevalent during the five months of the Micheletti government. There are indeed factors that might explain, but certainly not excuse, the excessive use of force during this period. There is in Honduras a traditional culture of violence, decentralized control over widely and thinly dispersed police forces, and a lack of professional training at the operational level of the police.

The small country at this time was also suffering a collective paranoia, quite honestly, out of its isolation from the international community, exacerbated by its former president, President Zelaya, testing its borders, with support from such South American heavy-hitters as Brazil, Venezuela, and Argentina. In fact, we concluded that the fact that the OAS expelled Honduras so rapidly—the only other country to be expelled from the OAS, of course, being Cuba—took the OAS out of any brokering or mediating role to try to bring the situation back to a more stable situation, and to some extent, the Hondurans rallied against the OAS at that time.

That said, however, there could never be any justification for the complicity of the senior levels of government, reaching to Micheletti himself, in condoning police violence, in failing to investigate obvious politically inspired assassinations, or in restricting freedom of movement through the imposition of extended curfews without corresponding constitutional authority.

The human rights situation during this period, although grave, remained limited in scope and time compared to the horrors of violations involving mass killings in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Argentina or the torture and targeted assassinations in Peru and Chile at an earlier time. We do not feel they were of that scope, but they were definitely to be condemned.

The failure of institutions, the lack of clarity of governing precepts stemming from a weak constitutional regime, and an insufficiently rooted democratic construct were the principal factors leading to the coup. These inadequacies created the conditions that allowed for the complicity of the Micheletti ad hoc government in the perpetration of violations with respect to personal liberties and security. This assessment in the latter half of 2009 impelled the commission to focus extensively on Honduras's governance regime and to concentrate much of its work on developing recommendations not only to reinforce the rule of law but to find ways to broaden citizens' access to the law. This emphasis also corresponded to a consistent refrain heard during a dozen town hall meetings conducted by the commissioners: the impunity of the few and the inequality of the many before the law.

Let me just end with two quotes that best illustrate this sentiment. Witness number 132 of the victims of human rights indicated: “These wounds are not healed with the passage of time: they are healed by the application of justice.”

My second quote comes from Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who stated in a different place with different problems: “Without justice, there can be no reconciliation. Without reconciliation, there can be no future.”

Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much. That other place, I'm assuming, was in South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission?

1:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Kergin

Yes, correct.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Okay. Thank you.

Despite the assiduous efforts of our technical people to get hold of Rolando Sierra, although they'll continue to try, I think we can make the assumption that he won't be available, for which I apologize. We will try to reschedule him at another meeting and give everybody adequate notice to ensure that people can adjust their schedules for that.

We have enough time to give six-minute question and answer rounds, but we will have to be fairly diligent about wrapping up on time. We have to get back to the House, and there will be some considerations there that will cause us not to be able to go over, as we sometimes do.

I'm told that Ms. Grewal will be the first speaker.

Please go ahead.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our witness here today, Mr. Kergin, for your time and your presentation.

In your opinion, do you believe that the truth and reconciliation commission has been successful in securing Hondurans from human rights violations? In addition, do you envision an alternative strategy, rather than the truth and reconciliation commission, that could contribute to the strengthening of the country's political institutions?

1:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Kergin

I think the commission's major contribution probably was to stimulate a dialogue amongst Hondurans, to look back on what happened in the lead-up to the coup that took place in 2009 and try to examine where there might be improvements in terms of their governance to do that.

The society was incredibly split between left and right, and the coup put a stake almost through this society. We would go to these small pueblos, these small villages and so forth, and you could see how much there'd be the pro-Zelaya group and the pro-right wing, if you will, or National Party group. The nice thing about these things, though, in these small towns is that people recognized they had to live together. The thing about Honduras is it's a very mountainous region. These towns are quite isolated, and they're kind of caught in the valleys. You can't really escape, so you have to have a fairly amiable relationship with your neighbour. You can't allow politics to drive too much of a conflict in that small context.

My sense was that I don't think we made great progress in actually changing the institutions of government, but as I say, I haven't been back since that time. We gave an awful lot of press conferences, and from what I could gather in talking a bit to our colleagues in Foreign Affairs, it did stimulate a fairly good discussion on how we can improve our governance mechanisms. Whether in fact they will be improved is another story.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Kergin, critics have argued that the commission has failed to adhere to the internationally recognized standards for truth commissions. Can you please explain to the committee what the international standards for truth commissions are, in your opinion? Has the truth commission developed for Honduras failed to meet international standards? If so, why?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

This is very unusual. I'm going to interrupt for a second. I apologize. We're stopping the clocks to get the rest of your question. We have Mr. Sierra on the line. I have to do a sound check so that we can confirm that he can hear us.

We'll let you continue with the answer, Mrs. Grewal, with the rest of your time. Then we'll go to his testimony. Then we'll continue on with questions after that.

My apologies for interrupting.

1:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Kergin

Sorry. Do you want me to answer?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Yes, please give an answer now.

Thank you.

1:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Kergin

Did we study the constitution of other commissions?

As I mentioned, the key about a commission is that it is established by a government, and you're pretty well locked in to what the government says the commission can do. We, in our case, as I mentioned, added the human rights dimension; it wasn't in the original mandate. In that respect, I think we lived up to what was required.

The commission, however, did not have prosecutorial powers. We could not summon witnesses against their own volition, and we had no powers of prosecution—we couldn't actually prosecute individuals. Our sense was to share with government cases in which there had been violations of human rights, and then it was up to the government to take the actions of prosecution.

If I have a criticism of the commission, it is that we weren't terribly successful in publicizing our recommendations on governance. I think that's important, because other countries, such as the Nordic countries and Canada, wanted to help strengthen Honduras's governing systems. Although we had our report—and it was about the size of two Ottawa telephone books—it was in Spanish. It took Foreign Affairs in this country about six months to translate it so that we could send the report to countries that were English-speaking and perhaps weren't prepared to get exercised or interested in a Spanish publication.

I think we could have done a slightly better job of trying to make our report internationally accessible, and that might have helped more to bring in technical assistance and aid from other countries that were trying to support Honduras in its efforts to become more democratic.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You still have a minute and a half.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Can I go ahead?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Yes, please.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Freedom House issued a world report last year. The report mentioned that in Honduras, media ownership is concentrated in the hands of a few powerful business interests.

To your knowledge, is the media currently restricted in Honduras? Have reporters and journalists been able to use the Internet to spread useful, uncensored information?

1:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Kergin

That's definitely a problem area. I didn't get into it in great length, but the report gets into quite a few suggestions for at least trying to bring to the attention of the authorities that the media, like everything in Honduras, I guess.... You have five or six, if not families, at least groups, that own the banks; they own the sources of media. They tend to get together behind closed walls and decide who should be the presidential candidate, and so on, and they have the power of finance, of course. To some extent, it is a problem in Honduras.

The press is extremely lurid. It's a terribly violent society, as I'm sure you're aware. It has the highest homicide rate in the world, I think, by quite a long shot. The press indulges in sensationalism; it does not indulge in serious, objective analysis of events.

There is a press that represents different perspectives, I suppose, but it's certainly the conservatives' press that seems to dominate, and to some extent, as a result, it doesn't always provide an objective view of what's happening.

Yes, journalists are very much an endangered species there, partly because of political reporting, but also because the drug situation has now become completely out of control. It was so even in my day, when I was involved. Any investigative journalists who were looking into the drug issues were subject to potential assassination, not for political reasons but because they were revealing issues related to drugs and drug abuse and so on.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We're going to stop at this point to see whether we can get Mr. Sierra on.

Hello. Can you hear us? We can hear you.

1:30 p.m.

Sonia Wayand Assistant, As an Individual

Mr. Sierra, can you hear us?

1:30 p.m.

Rolando Sierra As an Individual

I can hear you well.

1:30 p.m.

Assistant, As an Individual

Sonia Wayand

Mr. Sierra, can you speak English?

1:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Rolando Sierra

No, I cannot speak English.

1:30 p.m.

Assistant, As an Individual

Sonia Wayand

You will be connected to the interpreters. You can speak Spanish and they will proceed with the interpretation.

You will be in contact with Mr. Scott Reid, who is presiding over the committee.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

What I'd like, Mr. Sierra, is for you to please feel free to begin your testimony. The translators will then translate for the benefit of our committee members. When that is done, some of the committee members will ask you some questions.

Please feel free to begin at any time.

1:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Rolando Sierra

In the first place, I would like to say that in the last few years the state of Honduras has not shown any policy of human rights violations, like we saw during the last century. The state has also recognized that there has been infiltration of different sectors, like the police, for example, and in that respect the state has had to take measures related to how to proceed with the investigation of human rights violations.

The main aspect of these processes is that we have proceeded to do a cleanout of the police services. We have created a special unit of investigation, and also for development of careers in the police. There has been a reform of the public safety sector, and the Ministry of Justice and Human Rights has also been created as a new ministry by this government to provide answers to the issues related to human rights.

This year we've seen the publication of a report on the situation of human rights violations that has information relating to 2011 and 2012. In this respect it is recognized that the country continues to be immersed in a situation of violence. The right to life continues to be an issue, and this is an issue that has been growing within Honduran society.

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

Included in the report by the Ministry of Justice and Human Rights produced by a state institution are facts about the wave of violence in recent times in the country, with an increase to 2,631 homicides, particularly in sectors such as cases of violence against women, as well as homicides of men, of judicial and legal figures in the country, and of professional actors and players like journalists and those in social communication. This is something we have seen.

The main problem outlined in the report is the weakness of state institutions in proceeding with investigations in a timely and effective manner to fight against impunity. That's one of the challenges the state is facing right now in Honduras. It is also important to mention that we are looking for solutions and alternatives.

As I said at the beginning of my presentation, we are currently going through a reform process in the public safety sector, with the objective of strengthening judicial institutions to facilitate the investigation and cleanup of the institutions involved. Journalists are also going through a process in hand with the secretariat of human rights to produce a law for the protection of human rights that would include journalists and social communicators, with the participation of all players in the justice system, to facilitate protection, and also investigations, particularly in the case of journalists.

On the other hand, and further to the case of journalists, we have seen in the national committee for telecommunications a proposal for reforms in this sector, to reform the law governing the telecommunications sector, which presents topics, the main one being the democratization of telecommunications to include private and public media as well as community media.

The country is also going through a process of open discussions regarding freedom of expression as well as freedom of the press. The different sectors include the private sector, media, journalists, and organizations related to the different social sectors as well as players in the human rights and freedom of expression sectors in the country who are participating in this debate.

We must also recognize the challenges surrounding violence and human rights in the country. During the last few years, in an area of the country known as Aguan, where access to land has been an issue...despite the fact that there have been some agreements with different sectors of the government, it represents the highest rates of violence and conflict, with a strong presence of police forces and state players and continued conflict between the peasant sectors and the entrepreneurial sectors of the area.

I don't know if you have any questions now regarding any particular topics.