Evidence of meeting #27 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iran.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Dubowitz  Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies
Ali Alfoneh  Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Welcome to the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today is May 13, 2014, and this is our 27th meeting, which is televised.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our study of the human rights situation in Iran. This was something we've done in the past, and we referred to it as Iran accountability week; however, it has sort of become Iran accountability fortnight. That is, in part, due to the large number of high-quality witnesses we are able to bring before our subcommittee.

Today we have as witnesses two individuals from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. One is Mark Dubowitz, who has been here before. It's good to see you back again. The other is Ali Alfoneh.

Gentlemen, I assume that our ever-efficient clerk has explained the general process to you, but just to refresh your memories, we normally look for about a 10-minute presentation. We do not hold you to it strictly, but just to state what is obvious to us, and should be obvious to anybody, the briefer your presentation, the longer and more fulsome the question and answer session can be. I will determine how much time is available for each question and answer based on how much time remains at the end of your testimony.

With that being said, I assume that you'll just divide the time between yourselves as you see fit. I encourage you to begin.

May 13th, 2014 / 1:05 p.m.

Mark Dubowitz Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Thank you very much.

Honourable members of this subcommittee, I am privileged to appear again before you today to discuss the issue of Iran's nuclear negotiations, Iran's human rights abuses, and the intersection between the two. It's a great honour to appear beside my colleague from FDD, Ali Alfoneh.

As many of you know, American officials are optimistic about the possibility of reaching a final nuclear deal with Iran before the summer, but the west must be careful not to let their wish for a deal blind them to Tehran's tactics. Iran’s leaders want a bomb and they want sanctions relief, and they want us to ignore their vast system of domestic repression. But a flawed nuclear deal, based on a complicated technical compromise that will likely permit Iran to retain essential elements of its military nuclear infrastructure, may end up giving them all of these things.

Confident that a deal is nigh, Washington has gone from a policy of disclose and dismantle—essentially insisting that Iran come fully clean on its military nuclear activities, coupled with demands to dismantle key elements of its military nuclear infrastructure—to defer and deter.

This new approach involves punting on some of the tougher issues, such as demands for full disclosure on Iran's nuclear weaponization activities before any nuclear deal is signed, and relying heavily on international weapons inspectors to stop the regime from achieving its decades-long objective of building a nuclear bomb.

U.S. participation in the upcoming negotiations isn’t premised on an expectation of Iranian veracity. If it were, Mr. Obama wouldn’t conclude any deal with Tehran until it had come fully clean about its past deceits. Instead, the west has lowered its nuclear demands in the face of Iran’s insistence that key elements of its nuclear program, and indeed its terrorism track record and human rights abuses, are non-negotiable.

We know that the interim deal reached in Geneva recently, number one, concedes to Iran an enrichment capability on Iranian soil, despite multiple UN Security Council resolutions that called on Iran to suspend all enrichment activities. Number two, it permits Iran to continue advanced R and D work on centrifuges, therefore increasing its ability to enrich uranium. Number three, it drops the previous P5+1 demands that enriched uranium be shipped out of the country and that the Fordow enrichment facility and the Arak heavy-water reactor be shuttered. Number four, it doesn’t demand that Iran halt its ballistic missile activities that could deliver nuclear weapons—again, in contravention of multiple UN Security Council resolutions. Unless a final deal requires all of these conditions among others, and doesn’t replace them with technical fixes that are too easily reversible, Tehran appears poised to retain a military nuclear infrastructure.

The French, who undoubtedly would like a deal, are quite familiar with Iranian nuclear mendacity. They are much less confident that a technical algorithm can solve what is a strategic problem, which is the essential nature and conduct of this regime, certainly exemplified by its human rights abuses and its support for terror abroad and terror at home. They rightly believe that if Tehran refuses to come clean on its past nuclear weaponization activities, there can be no confidence in any Iranian commitments in the future and no way to design an effective verification and safeguards regime to stop Iran from building a bomb.

What explains this diminishment of western negotiating leverage?

Among numerous reasons, it’s the Syria chemical red line debacle that undercut the credibility of Mr. Obama's insistence that the use of military force is on the table against an Iranian nuclear weapons breakout. It is also the White House’s recent panic attack about a recent bipartisan Senate bill mandating more sanctions if the nuclear talks fail or if Tehran engages in further terrorism. Iran had threatened to walk away from the table if the bill moved forward, and Mr. Obama, anxious to keep Tehran at the table, turned his fire on senators, including from his own party, accusing them of undermining diplomacy and risking war. This anxiety tells everyone, including Iran’s Supreme Leader, that Mr. Obama is not serious about backing up his diplomacy with real teeth. But it doesn’t end there.

Mr. Obama downplays the sanctions relief he has offered to Tehran. I ask you, shouldn’t one always overvalue the concessions one gives to the other side?

Well, Iran's negotiators understand the wisdom of undervaluing the relief package that they received so that they can ask for more at the end of the first six-month period of the Geneva interim deal, which is set to expire in July.

According to a new IMF report, the Iranian economy is experiencing a modest albeit fragile recovery, with positive GDP growth after the Iranian economy lost over 6% between 2012 and 2014, a halving of Iran's 40% inflation rate, and the stabilization of Iran's previously plummeting currency.

The Obama administration is loath to admit this modest Iranian recovery lest it provoke the ire of Congress after promising that sanctions relief was “limited, temporary, and reversible”. Tehran's reprieve for what could have been a more severe sanction-induced economic crisis, thanks to the de-escalation of sanctions in 2013, has given the Iranian regime some breathing room.

Now, Mr. Obama claims that he can turn sanctions pressure on and off like dials. Even a modest recovery reduces U.S. negotiating leverage. That leverage is eroding further as international companies begin to test the boundaries of western sanctions relief.

As Juan Zarate, a former treasury official, warned, "single-mindedly fixated on getting a deal at all costs," can too quickly reduce critical financial leverage without understanding that it can be "impossible to put the genie fully back into the bottle," once sanctions-induced pressure is relieved.

Tehran senses a desire in Washington for a nuclear deal at all costs and is pushing its advantage through negotiations to retain enough of its nuclear achievements for an atomic weapon at a time of its choosing.

The United States, on the other hand, seems increasingly fooled by these false divisions within the regime between so-called moderates and hardliners about Iran's nuclear program.

Abandoning the long quest for atomic weapons would be an extraordinary humiliation for all of Iran's ruling class. That's not going to happen unless Iran's Supreme Leader and his Revolutionary Guards know with certainty that their regime is finished if they don't abandon the bomb.

What can the Canadian government do about this? There are ongoing risks of Iran's military program, and the Canadian government can continue to play an important role in preventing Tehran from developing a nuclear weapon. I have three policy recommendations.

The first involves counter-proliferation. Iran's military program is still dependent on illicit procurement networks. In the event of a nuclear deal, Tehran may continue its long-standing track record of building clandestine nuclear facilities and may continue to source dual-use goods from countries like Canada. The Government of Canada needs to improve gaps in Canadian enforcement with respect to Iran's ability to buy parts and components for its nuclear program and its ballistic missile program. As nuclear expert David Albright recently noted in an April 24 report, Ottawa is not doing enough to stop Iranian exploitation of Canada “as a source of sanctioned goods and as a transshipment country for goods originating in the United States.”

Second, on the issue of human rights, the Government of Canada should build on its global leadership on Iranian human rights by establishing the importance of linkage between any nuclear agreement with Iran and an improvement in Tehran's atrocious human rights record. During the Cold War, western negotiators linked certain arms control agreements with the Soviet Union to demands for Moscow's adherence to human rights under the civil rights portion of the 1975 Helsinki Accords. The Canadian government might support a nuclear agreement but should do so with qualifications, and it would be a tremendous achievement for Canada to have the Ottawa accords, accords that are actually founded in Ottawa, linking arms control negotiations with Iran to continued improvement on Iran's atrocious human rights record.

Third, and finally, in December 2012, the Government of Canada added Iran's Quds Force, the overseas terrorist arm of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, to the list of terrorist organizations under Canada's Criminal Code, a very important step in recognizing the IRGC's threat to international peace and security.

As I urged the subcommittee in prior testimony, the Government of Canada should take the next logical step and designate the IRGC in its entirety, both under Canada's Criminal Code, for its terrorist operations, and under SEMA, for its role in violating the human rights of the Iranian population. Human rights abuses by the Iranian regime fulfill the basic criteria under subsection 4(1) of SEMA, which has already been used to sanction human rights abuses by Syria's Assad regime, by the Government of Zimbabwe, by the Government of Burma, and by the Government of Sudan, among others.

It would be of profound, symbolic, and practical importance for the Canadian government to designate the Revolutionary Guards and the Basij Force for their human rights abuses.

On behalf of Foundation for Defense of Democracies, thank you for inviting me to testify today, and I look forward to your questions.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Mr. Alfoneh, go ahead.

1:15 p.m.

Ali Alfoneh Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for providing me with this opportunity to share my analysis with you.

Allow me in particular to express my gratitude to you because you do something that most politicians and statesmen in the west do not: you make a linkage between violation of human rights and terrorism and the nuclear issue. What we usually see is that western governments express their concern about Iran’s nuclear program. They, of course, also express their concerns when it comes to the Islamic republic’s support for international terrorism, but when it comes to the human rights violations inside of Iran we do not hear very strong condemnation from abroad.

I believe that this hearing, and your deeds, certainly send the right signal to the Iranian population. Until now, the Iranian public was under the impression that the west does not really care if the threats emanating from the regime are not targeting the west but are only, and solely, targeting the Iranian population. Now the Iranian public know that they have friends among statesmen and elected officials of Canada.

Looking back at the past year, where we have seen the emergence of President Hassan Rouhani, I would like to address two questions: What is the state of human rights in Iran under President Rouhani? What is the state of the Islamic republic’s sponsorship of international terror under President Rouhani?

When it comes to the state of human rights, the truth is that Mr. Rouhani, in his political campaign prior to the election, was not focusing that much on it. There was some discussion about Iran, and the Rouhani team proposed a citizens' charter of rights. Now the charter has been published, but we see some very bad signals from the Rouhani camp being signalled in the charter.

What we see is that the charter in reality is condoning institutionalized acts of discrimination against members of the Iranian public, particularly when it comes to women and religious minorities. For example, in the charter, Mr. Rouhani says that he is against “inappropriate discrimination”. Thereby the charter in reality says that there is something called “appropriate discrimination”. An example of that “appropriate discrimination” is the fact that in Iran, women’s legal testimony, particularly in courts, has half the value of a man’s legal testimony.

When it comes to religious minorities that are recognized by the state, those religious minorities cannot enjoy the right of running for president in Iran, like Mr. Rouhani. Of course, the fate and destiny of religious minorities not recognized by the Iranian state is much worse, particularly the Baha'i community, those who declare themselves atheists, but also supporters of mystic interpretations of Islam that do not pursue the same line and do not share the interpretation of the Iranian state when it comes to what the religion of Islam is.

Apart from that, Mr. Rouhani very clearly, in the charter of citizens' rights, writes that he wants to operate within the body and framework of existing legislation. In practice, it means that, yes, Iranian citizens would have freedom of speech, but they would not have freedom after speech. That is one of the consequences of the charter of rights that Mr. Rouhani is proposing, because according to Iranian legislation, there is no freedom of speech unless it has been through all the censorship authorities that exist in the Islamic republic. Freedom of association, the right to form political groups, all those freedoms, of course, are restricted, and Mr. Rouhani is not proposing anything in order to improve those issues.

The report of Dr. Ahmad Shaheed is familiar to you. He is documenting the deterioration of the state of human rights in Iran under President Rouhani. The number of executions has actually gone up to more than 600—624—in the course of the past year. The number of Baha'i citizens being imprisoned solely because of their faith has increased.

We have imprisonment of political activists who actively promote the cause of ethnic minorities in Iran, labour unions, student unions. All these parameters have changed for the worse, not for the better, under President Rouhani.

There are those who support and defend Mr. Rouhani. They say that the deterioration is not because of Mr. Rouhani. The chief proponent of this theory is former President Ayatollah Rafsanjani. They claim that Mr. Rouhani is on the right side. He wants to do the right thing but institutions such as the Revolutionary Guards and the so-called hardliners are against it. If we take a look at the track record of both Mr. Rafsanjani and Mr. Rouhani, in the entire course of their political careers these two gentlemen have never been proponents of the rights of man—never, never. These two gentlemen are firm believers that Iran's economy should develop, but they do not believe in political development. They would not be ready to give political liberalization to the Iranian public.

Simultaneously, they are also very fearful of Iran having the same destiny as the Soviet Union. What they say is that Mr. Gorbachev started a political reform process in the Soviet Union that only accelerated demands for political freedoms. Mr. Rafsanjani and Mr. Rouhani, back in the days of Mr. Khatami, the reform president, when he came to office they called Mr. Khatami “Ayatollah Gorbachev“. What does that mean? It means that Mr. Khatami, too, was a believer in the system but he was starting a political reform process that could prove extremely dangerous for the survival of the regime. These people, they want economic development; they would like to have sanction relief, but they are not ready to give political freedoms.

In order to stop and control the Iranian public, they believe in the use of terror as an instrument of power; yes, an instrument of power. They fundamentally believe they can control the Iranian population by terrorizing them. Mr. Rouhani is not against violation of human rights. He is effectively using terrorism against Iranian citizens as an instrument of control. Unfortunately, Mr. Rouhani's administration, and in particular the Revolutionary Guards, are also firm believers in terrorism as a foreign policy instrument. They believe that by using terrorism they managed to force the United States to leave Lebanon during the civil war in the 1980s. They believe this. They believe that the Khobar Tower bombings in 1996, according to Mr. Rouhani, created such a fear in America that the Americans no longer believed they had a safe haven in Saudi Arabia. This was Mr. Rouhani on the record analyzing the impact of the Khobar Tower bombings in 1996. After the 2001 terrorist attacks against the United States, Mr. Rouhani's analysis was practically similar. He believed that the United States was more or less in a state of terror, only because a very, very small group had managed to commit those terrible crimes.

Now that Mr. Rouhani is not going to deliver, what policy recommendations would we give to the Government of Canada?

First of all, most unfortunately, I have to confess that I expect another wave of Iranian refugees leaving Iran and trying to find a safe haven abroad. The Government of Canada has been most gracious, most hospitable, and very, very guest friendly toward my countrymen. I also hope that in the future the Government of Canada can provide Iranian citizens fleeing from injustice in Iran a new home in Canada.

I also hope and urge the Government of Canada to follow up on designating the Quds Force as a terrorist organization. The Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards has many front organizations. One of these organizations is called the Imam Khomeini Aid and Relief Organization. They claim they are practically the same thing as the Red Cross or the Red Crescent in Iran, engaging in aid activity outside of Iran, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in reality, unfortunately, this is a front organization of the Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards.

If the Quds Force is sanctioned and designated as a terrorist organization, those organizations providing material support to the Quds Force should also be designated.

I would like to add to what my colleague Mr. Dubowitz expressed, the wish that not only the Revolutionary Guards' acts of terrorism against western citizens, not only their engagement in the development of a nuclear bomb, but also their activity in suppressing the civil rights of Iranians inside Iran be on the mind of Canadian parliamentarians whenever they think about designating organizations as violators of the rights of man.

Thank you very much.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you, Mr. Alfoneh.

Thank you as well, Mr. Dubowitz.

Just so members of the subcommittee know, Mr. Dubowitz's written presentation has been circulated, but Mr. Alfoneh's has not been yet because it has to be in both official languages, but it will be shortly.

We're going to start with Ms. Grewal. Given the amount of time that our presenters have taken, we'll have time for five-minute question and answer rounds.

Please begin, Ms. Grewal.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your time and your presentations.

Mr. Dubowitz, President Rouhani recently stated that Iran will not accept nuclear apartheid in light of the recent talks in Vienna concerning a nuclear deal. In addition it appears that Iran wants full sanction relief, which the international community of course is reluctant to give.

Given these facts, do you believe that a nuclear deal can be reached by the July target date, and what would such a deal imply for the future of human rights in Iran?

1:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Mark Dubowitz

Thank you very much for your question.

I believe that a nuclear deal is possible, even with this regime. I'm skeptical that a deal could be reached by July 30 unless it's a bad deal. If there's a bad deal it could be reached very quickly.

The fundamental condition—there are many conditions of a good deal—the sine qua non of a good deal is the ability of the international community to verify and inspect Iran's nuclear facilities, to have unfettered access by the IAEA anywhere, any time. Iran's record of nuclear development is one of nuclear mendacity. This is a regime that lies profoundly; it lies persistently; it lies pervasively; it lies perniciously.

The only guarantee that we have against a future nuclear weapon is the ability of the international community to go anywhere any time. That requires Iran to fully come clean on the past military dimensions of its program, to provide all documentation to the IAEA, to answer all their questions, and then to permit the IAEA, with that information, to design a verification and inspection regime that is unfettered, that goes anywhere, any time. Without that, I fear that a nuclear deal would be fundamentally flawed, and we'll be merely punting on the question of Iran's nuclear weapon, not solving it.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Alfoneh, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps has made several proclamations about its centrality in the Iranian economy. Do you believe Mr. Rouhani has a desire to limit the power of the corps and its influence on the Iranian program?

1:30 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Ali Alfoneh

I think that because of the short time we have for our discussion, we present the decision-making process in Iran as if it is monolithic. That's not the case. There certainly are many conflicts among the group Mr. Rouhani represents and the mafia that is the Revolutionary Guard and the Supreme Leader.

I see the Iranian leadership as a triangle. The Rouhani government may want the bomb in the longer term, but right now they are opting for some kind of a negotiated solution that gives the government access to cash. The Revolutionary Guard has everything to lose if there is a negotiated solution, because they want the bomb. They look next door to Pakistan, and they see the Pakistani military being the custodian of the nuclear bomb. They also are aware of the prestige that the Pakistani military is enjoying because it is the custodian of the bomb. Therefore, the Revolutionary Guard seems to be against any kind of negotiation. Mr. Khamenei is somewhere in the middle. He's oscillating between the two poles. In his statements, if you take a careful look, every second statement is in defence and support of Mr. Rouhani; every other speech is in defence and support of the Revolutionary Guard, because he, too, knows that he cannot afford to alienate the Revolutionary Guard. He knows the Revolutionary Guard suppressed and crushed the anti-government uprisings in 2009; therefore he cannot alienate them. This is why Mr. Khamenei is oscillating.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Mr. Chair, do I have some more time left?

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You have 45 seconds.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I'll pass my time to Mr. Schellenberger.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

If you like, Mr. Schellenberger, we can come back to you. I'll add those 45 seconds then.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Yes.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Okay. That sounds good.

Mr. Marston.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Chair, I have to advise you that I have to leave the meeting shortly, because I have a statement.

Mr. Alfoneh, we get background on the witnesses who come before us. You're classified as an expert on Iran and the inner workings of the regime. What is that expertise based on?

1:30 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Ali Alfoneh

It's based on open source analysis, sir. What we do is we systematically analyze any data that is available in the open source. We read not only current affairs, not only the newspapers, but also historical records.

For your information, the interesting thing about the Iranian political system is that there is a relative degree of openness. It is not like North Korea. Statesmen write their memoirs. From the memoirs you can extract information and data. That information gives you a wealth of data.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

So it's from research, then.

1:35 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Ali Alfoneh

Absolutely.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I was wondering if perhaps there had been some direct connection in Iran that you'd had, but okay, we can move on. There are other things I want to ask you.

Professor Akhavan gave public testimony before this committee. I don't know how long ago it was, but it must be at least a year, if not more. You were talking about unfettered internal political development. He told this committee that his belief was that for change to happen in Iran, the western nations had to be removed from the equation, not part of it.

What do you think of that statement?

1:35 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Ali Alfoneh

I believe western countries can provide access to information to the Iranian public. I believe western countries can also punish those members of the political elite of the Islamic Republic of Iran who are suppressing the rights of man in Iran. I believe western countries can provide asylum to the victims of those who are persecuted in Iran.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I would take it that you don't quite agree with his statement. I wanted to see what the balance would be between your observations and his.

Mr. Dubowitz— did I pronounce that right, even remotely close?

1:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Mark Dubowitz

Yes. You're exactly right.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I'm notorious for my English thick tongue.

There's one thing I'd like to put to rest. You talked about Iranian front groups, and that's an accusation that could be pointed by some at your group. How is your group funded?

1:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Mark Dubowitz

Sorry, sir. I have to say that the acoustics are not great in here.

Is the question about Iranian front groups?