Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 6th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Order, please.

We are the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today is November 6, 2014, and this our 43rd meeting.

This meeting is televised.

We have with us today from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, DFATD, Henri-Paul Normandin, who is the director general of the Latin America and Caribbean bureau, and Johanne Forest, who is the director of Central America and Caribbean—something got left out. You surely can't be the director of the entirety of Central America and the Caribbean with no qualifier.

[Johanne Forest, Director, Central America and Caribbean Relations Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Division.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay, it's a typo.

All right, here we go. My understanding is that Mr. Normandin will make the presentation, then both of you will be available to answer questions.

Perhaps I could invite you to begin.

[Henri-Paul Normandin, Director General, Latin America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and distinguished members of the committee.

I am very pleased to appear before you today to provide an update on the human rights situation in Honduras.

My predecessor appeared before you in February 2013. He highlighted the situation in Honduras at the time with respect to high levels of poverty and inequality, weak public institutions, including a weak judicial system, corruption, impunity, political instability, and the presence of organized crime and violence.

As of today, many of these problems persist. The justice and human rights system remains weak, and security and human rights conditions have yet to show much improvement. Reports of human rights defenders, journalists, and justice sector workers being targeted for intimidation and violence, including murder, continue.

What I propose to do today is threefold: first, to identify some of the measures that the Government of Honduras is taking to address a number of these issues; second, to highlight what Canada does to support progress on human rights in this context; and third, to answer any specific questions the committee may have.

By way of context, let us mention that the political situation in Honduras is more stable than it has been for several years. President Hernández, who was democratically elected and took office in January of this year, has focused on reducing crime, violence, and corruption. The new administration has also adopted a series of measures to improve security that appear to be leading to positive results. A state secretary for human rights who comes from civil society and has strong credentials has been appointed and actively advocates for initiatives and interventions in support of human rights.

What are those measures that the government of Honduras has taken? I will highlight a few.

First of all, in direct response to the death of two prosecutors in October of this year, the Honduran Congress approved reforms to the penal code to increase the penalty for murdering judicial officials to life imprisonment. The penalty for convictions for threatening government officials in the exercise of their duties has also been increased to 20 years of imprisonment.

The Honduran Congress is also in the final stages of debating the national law for the protection of journalists and human rights defenders. This is an idea that was first proposed in the national human rights policy and action plan that was adopted last year. If approved, the law is expected to further help improve the security of human rights defenders and journalists.

The national human rights commissioner, also known as CONADEH, has recently put in place a phone line, 132, which all residents can call to make a human rights complaint, and there is some follow-up to these complaints.

A technical agency for crime investigation has been created within the prosecutor's office to examine high-profile cases and increase the monitoring of the police and judiciary.

I would also note that the government has pledged to deliver human rights training to the military, police, air force, and correctional staff, and for the first time to the president and his cabinet.

In addition, the Honduran government is working closely with civil society, for example, through the establishment of a government-civil society working group, to evaluate solutions for land reform in the troubled Bajo Aguán region of the country.

The Honduran government has also expressed its willingness to work with multilateral organizations, including the UN Human Rights Council and the Organization of American States' Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. As you know, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has requested that Honduras adopt precautionary measures to protect certain human rights activists.

The Office of the Inspector General of Honduras is currently administering 39 sets of protective measures ordered by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.

Mr. Chair, in this context, the Government of Canada has been taking a number of steps to further encourage progress on human rights and strengthen institutions.

First, Canada engages in an ongoing dialogue with the Honduran government and civil society on key human rights issues in bilateral meetings as well as through several other ways. For instance, as a member of the group of donors and international representatives in Honduras, Canada raises human rights, security, and development issues with the Government of Honduras at the highest levels. We also maintain regular and close contact with civil society organizations. We are also active in expressing our concerns through multilateral institutions such as the UN Human Rights Council.

Beyond dialogue, Canada concretely supports a number of projects and cooperation undertakings in the fields of human rights, development, democratic governance, and security. All of these, of course, are interconnected and mutually reinforcing. For instance, recognizing that high rates of impunity in Honduras are a key factor affecting the human rights situation, Canada supports projects that help increase the investigative capacity of police, prosecutors, and judges to investigate, prosecute, and manage trials.

Mr. Chair, in the written statement that we have provided, you will find more details of some of these projects. I won't go through all those details, but I will mention that following a number of these projects, Honduran crime scene technicians have informed us that, thanks to the training they received from Canada, they have been able to resolve seven murder cases to date and continue to make progress on a number of pending cases.

In another area, the Canada fund for local initiatives has supported Honduran NGOs involved in human rights. Specific projects include training for human rights promoters, informing women about their rights, and protecting vulnerable populations such as youth and the LGBTI community.

Honduras has also benefited from Canadian support in the field of labour rights through a program implemented by Employment and Social Development Canada. ln 2012, four workshops were held in Honduras for leaders and members of workers' organizations to strengthen their capacity on incorporating international standards on occupational safety and health.

In closing, as we have mentioned, Honduras still faces many human rights challenges. This is in a broader context of challenges relating to development, insecurity and weak institutions. The Government of Honduras acknowledges the need to improve human rights, and it has taken a number of initiatives in this regard. Further, the Government of Honduras maintains an open dialogue with Canada and the international community on human rights issues, and it welcomes Canadian and international cooperation in this field.

Canada engages and works with Honduras accordingly. We cooperate on human rights issues, as well as on development, democratic governance and security.

Honduras clearly needs broad-based economic growth to address the basic needs and rights of its population, particularly the most vulnerable, and provide employment opportunities and alternatives to criminal activity. That is why Honduras is a country of focus for Canada's development cooperation program. Last year, Canada provided over $30 million to promote sustainable economic growth, improve food security, and address social inequalities and exclusion.

The recent coming into force of the Canada-Honduras free trade agreement will also help increase the country's prosperity by creating new economic and employment opportunities.

In short, while recognizing that Honduras is still facing many challenges, we continue to work on several fronts to help Hondurans reform their institutions and address human rights, development and security challenges.

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank you and the members of the committee for giving us an opportunity to share with you the most recent developments in Honduras and to briefly discuss what Canada does in this respect.

It goes without saying that we are available to answer any questions the committee members may have. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you for being so succinct. We appreciate that.

We can definitely get away with six-minute rounds of questions and answers. This may go quickly, in which case we'll have time for anyone who has a supplemental question to come back and ask it.

We'll start with Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The chair is right: you were not only succinct, but your opening remarks were very helpful. We're trying to make sure we fill any gaps between the time we did previous witness testimony for our study and what's transpired between then and now.

There's no doubt in my mind, and I think my colleagues will agree, that Honduras is in a very tough situation on many levels. They need not only good leadership there, but lots of help from the international community.

I was glad you pointed out the two different investments that Canada had made. I think with the kind of economy they have, they're going to need some help for some time until they have the capacity to get to the point where they have an international standard, a first world standard as regards the rule of law and human rights.

I'm going to ask you some detailed questions. I don't want to put you on the spot. You've already given us lots. If you need to send some of the information later, then I'm fine with that.

There was one thing I was very happy to hear about. You mentioned results in regard to the technical forensic training, and the fact that they had made some significant progress on seven high-level murder cases. I think they actually resolved these cases. That's very good news.

You mentioned earlier in your remarks a program that provides 39 sets of protective measures and three sets of provisional measures to protect those who are at a high risk.

Again, because I like results, do we have any evidence that those measures have to date thwarted any kinds of threats or intentions to cause those individuals bodily harm?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Thank you very much for your question.

Mr. Chair, on the specific issue of measures, following the recommendations of the Inter-American Commission, what we know is that some of these measures have included, for instance, police protection for the individuals who are affected. We also know that they have provided the beneficiaries of these measures with information, for instance, emergency phone numbers in case something happens. This I can confirm.

Beyond this, it would be a bit difficult for me to say.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

You did answer part of it in the sense that for the very high-risk individuals, they actually have police surveillance with them.

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Yes, for a number of them, at least.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

For a number of them, okay.

Can you give me an idea about how much we are involved down there? The Royal Canadian Mounted Police have some personnel there. Are there any other law enforcement agencies from this country that are helping them? Do we have people who are advising them, such as crown prosecutors, judiciary, etc.?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

There is a whole set of Canadians who provide technical assistance and support through various projects.

For instance, there is the Justice Education Society, which is a Vancouver-based organization. They are there, present on the ground. They provide technical assistance to train police, to train investigative units in special methods of investigation, including very specialized techniques, such as ballistic forensics and wiretapping. They have also been training crime scene technicians. The Justice Education Society of BC is one example.

In a broader context, I should also mention that Canada is part of the Group of Friends of Central America, which has a specific unit dedicated to security. Canada provides assistance to this group at the regional level, which in turn conducts a number of activities in Honduras.

This is some of the information that I can provide to you right away.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Great. We will have them coming as a witness as well for a follow-up. They testified before. I'm looking forward to that to see whether they've expanded their scope since the last time we talked with them.

This is a little bit political, but I think you can answer this one. Since the election of President Juan Orlando Hernández, can we confidently say that there is more openness to accepting help and improving the human rights situation of his own citizens, as compared with the situation in our relationship before?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

I will give two indications. I've already mentioned in my statement a number of measures that have been taken, but I will point to one more in particular.

First, the appointment of a state secretary who comes from civil society is, I think, a good indication that there is some will in the new administration to pursue progress on human rights issues.

Another example is that they have invited the office of the human rights commissioner of the United Nations to open an office in Tegucigalpa.

These are some of the indications that there is movement forward and that there is a desire to move forward.

Also, in terms of dialogue, the vice minister for human rights has made herself available to engage directly with us on those issues. In particular, she was here in Canada a number of months ago, and we had occasion to have a fulsome exchange with her on the measures that her government was taking. One thing she recommended and that we expect will take place is human rights training for military, police, and so on, which is scheduled to take place.

Also, maybe one last indicator is that the police have created a human rights unit within the police service to better address human rights issues that can arise from the work of police.

These are some of the examples we can provide that give indications that the current administration is taking steps to try to address those issues.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Have they taken steps in regard to private security? I know that was one issue that came up. Have they taken steps to rein in or at least hold to account those private security entities that are within Honduras?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

I would not have specific information on this issue, Mr. Chair.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Normandin, I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

I'm sure that the Canadian government is proceeding in a way to best influence the situation in Honduras. In fact, we receive some grassroots information. You may even know that Craig Scott, the member for Toronto—Danforth, was part of the alternative truth and reconciliation commission. My legislative assistant was an observer in their elections. We've had a number of people come to us with concerns.

I don't know whether you're aware of this, and I'm not really seeking commentary on what I'm about to say because it is political, but apparently Hillary Clinton spoke recently about how they had supported the coup. The things we're hearing are not as on track.

Obviously the efforts of the Canadian government seem to be fairly broad in what they're trying to accomplish, but we're certainly hearing that the optimism we hear from you today isn't quite supported on the ground.

I'd be glad to offer you some of the sources we have; we can send them to you. We have reports that come in from the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, even The Guardian newspaper. There are a number of areas that seem to contradict the sense we're getting from your report to us today. They're claiming that journalists, indigenous leaders, and human rights defenders are threatened and murdered. The words I hear is that it is the murder capital of the world.

One area we hear about too is the war on drugs being used to displace people from their land. I see you are acknowledging that.

It's almost as if the government is giving responses.... For instance, the laws you have referenced that have been passed are almost a form of appeasement, when you look at it from the ground level and see their lack of impact. That may well be because they don't have the resources, training, and all the things we're working on. Or is it that the corruption is so endemic there that it's hard to get past it?

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

Thank you very much for your comments and your questions, sir.

Mr. Chair, for sure we do recognize and acknowledge that there are serious issues in Honduras. I think I mentioned that very explicitly in our statement. There is cause for concern, and yes, human rights defenders and journalists are the subject of human rights violations.

In terms of where this is going, again, the one thing we can state for fact is that the current government is taking some measures. If we go one step beyond that, is an impact of all of these measures being felt on the ground in reality? There are some, and I will give you a few indicators in a moment, but I think that we all recognize that the impact of the total sum of these measures will probably be felt only gradually over time. Building institutions, whether it's human rights specific institutions or improving the way the police conducts its business, takes some time and it is difficult to expect results in the very short term. I think the results will be gradual over time and we will have to keep monitoring the real progress or the absence thereof on the ground.

This being said, some of the measures already taken do have a certain impact. I will offer one example. In the Bajo Aguan region where there's a lot of violence related to land rights issues, as I mentioned before, the government decided to engage in a collaborative capacity with civil society to address this issue. As a concrete result, the number of homicides in this particular region related to land rights issues has dropped from 40 in 2012 to 20 in 2013, so the number has dropped by half. Of course, this is still 20 homicides too many, but it is an indicator that shows there has been some progress.

In one other area, which may be a little less tangible but is nevertheless meaningful, as a consequence of all of the work that has been done to strengthen the capacity and the approach of security forces in dealing with violence and human rights issues, the authorities are telling us that there are now more witnesses and more community leaders who are prepared to work with security forces to investigate crimes and human rights violations.

If this is happening, then the odds of resolving cases and pursuing cases and reducing impunity over time are higher.

I use those two examples, but again acknowledging that the real meaningful impact of all of this we will have to monitor over time.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'm pleased to see your response to that, because there are at times, when governmental organizations from outside a country like that tend to delude themselves. You seem to be paying pretty strict attention to the efforts.

In the Aguan there has been over 100 murders since 2009. One of the concerns that people have raised with us is the way the president has militarized the police. He seems to have taken it up a notch and made it more like the armed forces. There are accusations of abuses by them and private security—I see you're well aware of it—to the point where the International Finance Corporation, the private arm of the World Bank, was reassessing a $30-million loan to a corporation.

It's troubling, but your sense of some optimism is probably a good thing for us to hear. The hard part for me is balancing it against what people have told us from on the ground. There were a number of things I was going to ask about. With respect to the efforts of the Canadian government, in recent times we've been under certain constraints here financially. Have they been fully funded? Is there anything lacking from the sense of financial stability people need for the long-term planning? You're referencing the fact that this is going to take years.

[Henri-Paul Normandin]

The current level of funding for Honduras from the Government of Canada in terms of development as well as security-related and human rights-related cooperation initiatives stood at $38 million in financial year 2012-13. Again, Honduras is a country of focus, so $38 million for a country like Honduras by Canadian standards generally is a substantial amount of money. It makes Honduras one of the priority countries for cooperation.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

How's my time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Your time was over two minutes ago.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I guess I asked two minutes too late, then.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

It's always bad to ask, because the answer is rarely good.

Ms. Grewal, it's your turn.