Evidence of meeting #64 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vietnamese.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Diem Do  Chairman, Viet Tan

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Dear colleagues, welcome to the 64th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today is April 21, 2015.

We are televised today. Today we are continuing—maybe “continuing our study” is the wrong way of putting it. We have had another hearing into the human rights situation in Vietnam. That was unfortunately a meeting that suffered from some technical difficulties with the audiovisual connections. It was most unfortunate.

Today we have a second meeting, and with us today is Diem Do, who is the chairman of Viet Tan. Welcome to our subcommittee, we're very glad to have you here. I'll invite you to begin your testimony. Once you've completed your testimony, we will then turn to the members of the subcommittee to ask you questions. The length of each round of questions and answers will be determined by how much time we have left.

I'm going to ask the members of the subcommittee that if any of them have to leave early because of the fact that they have to go to a different building to please let me know. We may adjust the order in which the questions are being asked and answered in order to allow ourselves a full amount of time, while still making sure that everybody who has a question to ask gets the opportunity to do so.

With that being said, Mr. Do, I turn the floor over to you, please.

1:05 p.m.

Diem Do Chairman, Viet Tan

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of Parliament, and ladies and gentlemen.

First, I would like to thank the Subcommittee on International Human Rights for holding this meeting and for giving me the opportunity to speak about the human rights situation in Vietnam.

At the end of the Vietnam War in 1975, Canada graciously received many Vietnamese refugees and provided them with a new home. For this kindness and generosity, we would like to express our deepest gratitude to all of you.

April 30 will mark the 40th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War. We must examine how 40 years of Communist rule has affected the people of Vietnam. As of 1975, the Communist Party of Vietnam established one of the most repressive and corrupt regimes in our history. Immediately after taking control of South Vietnam, the Communist Party sent hundreds of thousands of people into prison camps, where thousands died from torture, starvation, disease, and exhaustion from extreme labour.

From 1975 and well into the 1990s, their reign of terror drove many people into a mass exodus from Vietnam. Of those who tried to escape by boat, many perished at sea or fell victim to pirates, including hundreds of women and young girls who were raped or kidnapped. But perhaps the most glaring aspect of their 40-year rule is their abysmal human rights record.

For today's meeting I would like to offer my presentation on five key areas.

The first is freedom of expression and information. In Vietnam the state controls all print and broadcast media. Foreign news and television shows are censored before they reach the Vietnamese audience. The government silences critics through police intimidation, harassment, arrest, court convictions, and severe prison sentences. According to the Reporters Without Borders 2015 press freedom index, Vietnam ranked 175th out of 180 countries.

In September 2013 the government passed Decree 72, giving the state sweeping powers to restrict speech on Internet blogs and social media. In January 2014 they passed Decree 174, putting in place harsh penalties for social media and Internet users who voice anti-state “propaganda” or “reactionary ideologies”. The government also uses DDoS attacks to shut down opposition websites and spyware and malware to hack into activists' computers. According to Freedom House, they also employ thousands of “public opinion shapers” who spread favourable state propaganda on the Internet.

The top two recommendations for Vietnam from the UN universal periodic review in February of last year were, one, to create conditions favourable to the realization of freedom of opinion, expression, and association, and two, to ensure that freedom of expression was protected, both offline and online, to enable unrestricted access and use of the Internet and to allow bloggers, journalists, and other Internet users and NGOs to promote and protect human rights.

The second area is freedom of assembly and association. The Government of Vietnam bans all political parties, labour unions, and human rights organizations independent of the government or the Communist Party. The authorities require official approval for public gatherings and refuse to grant permission for meetings, marches, or protests they deem unacceptable.

In recent years, numerous protests have broken out over land confiscation by corrupt officials, over poor labour conditions and inadequate labour policy, and over territorial disputes with China. In response, state security forces regularly crack down on people participating in these protests, and many activists were either detained or sentenced to up to seven years in prison.

The third area is freedom of religion or belief. Although religious freedom is protected under the Vietnamese constitution, there are, however, many related decrees placing significant limitations on religious freedom. Most recently, Decree 92 was passed in January 2013, further extending the government's control on religious groups.

All religious groups in Vietnam are required to join a party-controlled organization called Vietnam Fatherland Front. Those who fail to do so are often arrested or harassed. Religious groups most often targeted by the government include the Cao Dai church, the Hoa Hao Buddhist church, independent Protestant house churches, the Catholic Redemptorists, and the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam.

Vietnam’s current situation can be best captured in the report of the UN special rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief after his visit to Vietnam in July of last year. Mr. Heiner Bielefeldt wrote in his summary:

Whereas religious life and religious diversity are a reality in Viet Nam today, autonomy and activities of independent religious or belief communities, that is, unrecognized communities, remain restricted and unsafe, with the rights to freedom of religion or belief of such communities grossly violated in the face of constant surveillance, intimidation, harassment and persecution.

Area number four concerns political rights. Vietnam is a one-party state in which the Communist Party of Vietnam has a firm monopoly over political power. This monopoly is guaranteed in article 4 of the recently amended 2013 constitution, which states that the Communist Party of Vietnam is the sole force leading the state and society. As mentioned above, all opposition parties are banned and severely persecuted.

Members of Vietnam’s National Assembly, which is the legislature, are elected in general elections; however, all candidates are vetted by the Communist Party-controlled Vietnam Fatherland Front. This earned Vietnam a Freedom House political rights score of seven in 2015, with one being the best and seven being the worst. As a result, the party controls all branches of the government. According to Freedom House, “Party membership is widely viewed as a means to business and societal connections, and corruption and nepotism among party members are a continuing problem.”

In Transparency International’s 2014 corruption perceptions index, Vietnam ranked 119 out of 175.

Despite many challenges, human rights defenders, democracy activists, intellectuals, and increasingly even some former high-ranking Communist officials, have openly called for political reform and better respect for human rights. Still, the government has responded with more arrests, harassment, and intimidation, a repression that many international organizations have labelled as the worst over the last 20 years.

The fifth and last area is the rule of law. Instead of the rule of law, the Vietnamese government has relied on the “rule by law” approach, applying sweeping national security provisions to suppress basic rights. To curtail freedom of speech, activists are charged with vaguely worded articles in the penal code, such as article 88, conducting propaganda against the state; article 79, subversion of the people's administration; and article 258, misuse of democratic freedoms to attack state interests and the legitimate rights and interests of organizations and/or citizens.

In addition, Vietnam’s judiciary is under the control of the Communist Party, and in politically motivated cases, trials are often conducted hastily and routinely lack the impartiality required by international law.

Vietnamese law also authorizes administrative detention without trial, deeming peaceful dissidence as a threat to national security and placing many under house arrest. To avoid international criticism, authorities have sometimes applied non-political charges, such as tax evasion, to jail high-profile activists.

As an example, in the 2014 “Human Rights and Democracy” report, the United Kingdom's Foreign and Commonwealth Office classified Vietnam as a country of concern, with the following observation:

There is a lack of transparency and accountability throughout the legal system. We are concerned that the state uses the courts to punish dissidents by prosecuting them on unrelated matters. For example, in the case of Le Quoc Quan, whose sentence to 30 months in prison for tax evasion was upheld in February [2014], the UK assessed that he was imprisoned for voicing his opinions on religion, corruption and land reform, and that his trial was unfair.

In conclusion, to protect human rights and ultimately to support democracy in Vietnam, I would like to make the following four recommendations. The first is to call for the release of political prisoners. I urge that the Government of Canada join the UN 2014 universal periodic review in calling on the Vietnamese government to immediately release all political prisoners held and those held for peaceful expression or religious beliefs. It is estimated that there are currently hundreds of political prisoners in Vietnam.

The second recommendation is for outreach to civil society. The Canadian embassy in Vietnam should meet with and support independent grassroots organizations, especially those advocating for social reform, legal reform, and human rights. In addition, engaging with human rights defenders and the relatives of those in prison would be very helpful.

The third recommendation is to focus on legal reform. The Government of Canada can insist that the Government of Vietnam abolish articles 79, 88, and 258 of the penal code and administrative decrees 72, 92, and 174. Canadian embassy officials should request to attend political trials and insist that the Government of Vietnam respect the rights to assemble, to exercise free speech, and to form civic organizations.

The fourth and last recommendation is to integrate human rights into the overall bilateral relationship. The Government of Canada can incorporate legal reform and Internet freedom into the agenda for promoting higher education and trade with Vietnam, develop a road map linking human rights improvements with closer economic and security ties, and continue to raise human rights during all parliamentary and executive branch visits to Vietnam.

Ladies and gentlemen, for many years the international community, especially the Canadian government and people, have been supporting human rights in Vietnam, and we thank you for all you have done. We believe that a free and democratic Vietnam, where human rights are respected, is in the best interest of the Asia-Pacific region and beyond.

We ask for your support in bringing human rights and freedom to our country, so that Vietnam can become a reliable and strong partner for a safe and prosperous Southeast Asia.

Thank you again for having me here today.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you for your testimony.

Colleagues, because that was done in such a timely fashion, we have more time than we have had at some previous meetings for each round of questions. I think we can get away with seven-minute rounds of questions and answers.

We will start with Ms. Grewal.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Do, thank you very much for your testimony today and for very concrete recommendations to the subcommittee as to how we should proceed.

The Vietnamese government continues to be a violator in a broad area of human rights and is among the worst violators of religious freedom in the world. The international community must exert pressure on the Vietnamese government to cease these abuses against its own citizens.

I am particularly concerned about the trafficking of women, men, and children around the region. It is my understanding that women are sold as mail-order brides or surrogate mothers, men are often sold into indentured servitude, and the most vulnerable citizens, children, are exploited for the purposes of sex, labour, and forced begging or bonded labour.

Could you provide our committee with additional information about human trafficking?

1:15 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

Yes. It is a huge problem in Vietnam. Part of the reason is that a lot of these trafficking rings actually either sponsor or are under the protection of the police, as you may have guessed, this being a very corrupt system. The police and local officials are very much involved in all of this trafficking activity.

As far as I know, the women who have been trafficked throughout Southeast Asia number into the hundreds of thousands. In the Taiwan, China, and Hong Kong area alone we are talking about approximately 70,000 to 85,000 women. I visited South Korea two years ago and met with some of these women who were trafficked and rescued. The estimate by the South Korean government is anywhere between 45,000 and 50,000 women trafficked from Vietnam into South Korea.

It is a huge problem. We've been trying to work with many international NGOs to address the issue. However, it's hard to deal with this problem because it originated in Vietnam, and as I said, at times under the protection of the police and local government officials. It is very hard to put an end to this problem because we don't have the cooperation of the Government of Vietnam, and it's very hard to deal with.

As far as children are concerned, I am not as familiar. However, I am very familiar with children trafficking to neighbouring countries, especially to Cambodia. I don't have a lot of information about children being trafficked elsewhere, but in Cambodia I do have quite a familiarity with the area. It has been estimated there are about 30,000 to 35,000 children from Vietnam currently residing in Cambodia and mostly being exploited as prostitutes.

I have met with a few of them. The youngest was six years old and the oldest was fourteen, mostly girls but a lot of boys too. It is truly heartbreaking to see that first-hand. I have worked with a couple of groups trying to get help to some of these kids, but then again, the problem originated in Vietnam. If we cannot get any cooperation from the Vietnamese government, then it becomes very difficult.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I am also really troubled by the persecution of religious minorities across Vietnam, government seizure of lands, particularly those belonging to religious or other minority groups, the resale of lands belonging to churches and temples, and the infiltration of religious organizations by government agents. They demonstrate a contempt of religious freedom. People should be able to practice their beliefs without fear of punishment or persecution by government officials.

In terms of the religious persecution, is it all kinds of religions, or is it a particular religion that is singled out? As well, is it possible that religion is just a kind of excuse for political persecution? Could you please shed some light on that?

1:20 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

First of all, I have to say the Vietnamese government does not discriminate when it comes to persecution. They don't. They persecute equally across the board, whether you are Buddhist, Catholic, Mennonite, or Protestant. It doesn't matter. They prosecute these groups simply because if these groups do not agree to their control or do not subject themselves to their control, then that's trouble for these groups.

As I mentioned in my testimony, religious groups in Vietnam are required to join and be put under the control of the Vietnam Fatherland Front, which is basically a tool controlled by the Communist Party. If these groups refuse to join, refuse to obey their rule, then that's trouble and they prosecute these groups because of that.

Here is a case in point. Last night, I spoke to a Mennonite pastor in Vietnam. He showed me that he was roughed up by so-called thugs. When he filed a complaint with the police, the police did absolutely nothing. Whether these thugs were hired by the police or not.... It is a common occurrence in Vietnam that police actually hire thugs to do the dirty work for them, to harass people, and to beat up people. To sum up, there is prosecution because they want to control, and if you don't subject your group to their control, then they will not allow that.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I'm afraid that's all the time we have, Mrs. Grewal.

We'll go now to Mr. Marston.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Do, I want to commend you for the comprehensive testimony. You have condensed into a small area some significant issues for us to consider. Listening to you talk about the trafficking in children, being a grandfather with nine grandchildren, you can imagine for a moment where my imagination took me and the horribleness of this.

You spoke several times in your testimony about police corruption. One of the things I didn't hear in your testimony was how that police corruption connected to the national government or is there a space between them? When you have a national government that is supportive of those kinds of actions, it makes it very difficult because clearly they don't have a conscience at that point. Is there an opening there for us to address this issue through their national government?

1:25 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

Corruption is a national problem for our country. It is all the way to the top. It's not just a few bad apples in the security forces. It is a huge problem. It runs all the way to the top. It's common knowledge in Vietnam right now that all the top leaders are very corrupt: their families, their children, their wives, and their cronies. They build around themselves a circle of supporters who basically benefit from their position.

Thanks to the recent infighting within the top leadership, news and information has been leaked out about the extent of corruption by the president, by the party chief, and by the prime minister. They even document or showcase pictures of their lavish lifestyles for everybody to see. I think the problem is not at the local level; it's all the way to the top and all the way down.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Beyond your testimony, and the facts that you've given us in the brief you've left us, we would sit here as parliamentarians with the Canadian government thinking in terms of where Canada could best intervene. As you know, Canada is part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership negotiations that are going on right now, and so is Vietnam. I would say that neither party is the core of those negotiations because of who else is involved.

It strikes me that's a particular avenue of at least sidebarring and addressing some of these issues in highlighting the fact that we need to have, as part of any agreement, human rights and labour rights written into the agreement. We've expressed concerns over the last number of years that in the agreements Canada has entered into that hasn't happened. Do you have any particular measures you think should be reflected in that Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement when it comes forward?

1:25 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

I think you mentioned labour rights. I think the TPP would be a great venue to push forward issues about labour rights, issues about human rights where appropriate, and issues of legal reform. It's hard to do business with a country where the legal system is so corrupt and so convoluted, and up for interpretation in whichever way the government wants.

I think legal reform, labour rights, and human rights are the three key areas that would benefit greatly if we can use the TPP as a venue to push these forward.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

The other area of concern is the drug detention centres. We have seen in some countries that the so-called war on drugs is used by totalitarian-type governments to persecute their own people, mistreat them, and kill them in many instances. Do you have any information regarding the treatment of detainees in these centres?

1:25 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

Generally speaking, treatment of detainees or prisoners in the Vietnamese prison system is very poor. I have done some work with a number of activists inside Vietnam who are trying to compile a report on prison conditions in Vietnam—not just for political prisoners but everybody—and how poor and how inhumane the prison system in Vietnam is right now.

I'm hoping that once we have that report compiled, perhaps as a follow-up we can share with the subcommittee the findings of that report. Generally speaking, prison conditions in Vietnam are very poor, especially for political prisoners or prisoners of conscience. They are frequently subjected to mistreatment, denial of immediate medical attention, and torture. The government even employs the tactic of putting these political prisoners in the same cell with HIV-infected people. That's the kind of treatment these prisoners of conscience are subjected to.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

One of the areas that you implied, or were actually fairly direct on, is the corruption throughout the system. You alluded to judges. Would you say that 100% of judges are under the thumb of this government and do not have any latitude in their decision-making? For example, if they're repressing the media, if they're repressing bloggers, are they using the judges themselves as tools to do that or just the system in general?

1:30 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

Yes, judges are appointed by the government. They are under the government's control. I have yet to see any judge in Vietnam deviate from what they are told to do.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I was hoping for something a little better than that.

When you lose your judiciary in any country, the rule of law, then it's an open market for people who want to violate accepted laws, even though you may have a statute that limits what they're supposed to do and what the judges are supposed to enforce. I believe you said in your testimony that they kind of look which way the wind is blowing and match up their rulings relative to that, which then sets jurisprudence in place that can be used for further abuses later on.

1:30 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

I'll just, for thirty seconds, explain that in political trials in Vietnam, the sentences are already predetermined. The judge basically just reads the sentence that was handed to them. They really don't make any ruling. They don't. That's the reality.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

Mr. Hillyer.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you for coming today. Is the Vietnamese government propped up by any other government, like China, or is it pretty much fully independent?

1:30 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

The Vietnamese Communists and the Chinese Communists are in a love-hate relationship. The Vietnamese Communists know that they need patronage from the Chinese Communist Party to stay alive. At the same time, they also know that the Vietnamese people resent that greatly. They try to walk a fine line, tiptoeing. To make a long story short, yes, they are under heavy influence from China; however, on the surface they would try their very best to put on a good face that no, they are not under the control of China.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB

How much influence do they have on neighbouring countries? After the Vietnam War or around the time of the Vietnam War, it seemed that a lot of the countries in the area were falling under communist regimes and a lot of them were not independent of each other. How is that today? Are the surrounding countries influenced by Vietnam?

1:30 p.m.

Chairman, Viet Tan

Diem Do

I would say that immediately after the end of the war, the Vietnamese Communist Party did enjoy much influence, if not control, for a long period of time over the two neighbouring countries of Laos and Cambodia. But by my assessment, Cambodia is slipping away from their control. Laos is still pretty much heavily influenced by the Vietnamese government. Why? I think part of the reason is because China has also been investing a lot in Cambodia, and I have noticed that the Chinese influence in Cambodia has been growing significantly. That could be part of the reason that it has been pulled away gradually from Vietnam. The Vietnamese presence in business and workers, the Vietnamese influence over the Cambodian society, I've noticed over the last five to 10 years, has dramatically declined, but not so much in Laos.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Hillyer Conservative Lethbridge, AB

While Cambodia's getting some independence, is it also becoming more free and more respectful of human rights?