Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 21st, 2015

[Diem Do]

Yes. We can supplement the subcommittee with the list we have of prisoners. You're right, most international organizations put the numbers at around 200. I believe Human Rights Watch and Freedom House both put the numbers in Vietnam at about 200.

The problem is that the real number is going to be higher. As I mentioned, there's administrative detention, a lot of people are being held without trials. There's been no formal court conviction, yet they are being held. The real number is going to be higher, but we will do our best to supplement the subcommittee with the list that we have.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Is there any access to these prisoners by NGOs, the Red Cross, Amnesty International, to report how they are?

[Diem Do]

It's really hit or miss. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International tried to access some of these people.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

How recently?

[Diem Do]

Maybe a year ago.

Embassies in Hanoi tried to do so as well. The German embassy, the American embassy, the Swedes have tried very hard to access these people over the years as well. So it's not just NGOs; some embassies have done their part.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay. I'll come back to that in a second. Is there still a large migration out of Vietnam or is the Communist Party preventing that as well?

[Diem Do]

People are still trickling out. I was in Australia last month and right now in Australia, if I'm not mistaken, more than a thousand Vietnam refugees are waiting for asylum.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Are they being processed by the UNHCR?

[Diem Do]

I believe so. In Thailand there are hundreds, if not close to a thousand Vietnam refugees seeking political asylum.

Yes, people are still trying to leave Vietnam, not on as large a scale as during the 1980s and 1990s, but there are still people trying to leave Vietnam today.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

In Thailand they would be intermingled with Burmese as well, and others.

[Diem Do]

Right, but they are being handled by the UNHCR.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes.

Thank you very much.

[Diem Do]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We turn now to Mr. Benskin, please.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

I want to echo the comments of my colleagues in welcoming you here and welcoming the significant contingent of the Vietnamese Canadian community here today.

I am going to follow up a bit on what my colleague Mr. Sweet had touched on, the NGOs. In previous testimony we heard, or correct me if I'm wrong, that the NGOs that have managed to exist in Vietnam were NGOs created by the government to show they're allowing accessibility on the ground. Is this correct, for a start?

[Diem Do]

I think one positive trend in Vietnam right now is the development of a nascent civil society. In recent years we began to see more and more grassroots organizations starting to spring up and operate inside Vietnam, and also NGOs from the outside coming in and establishing operations inside Vietnam.

However, the overwhelming majority of these groups are still working on issues that are non-threatening to the government. If they work on the environment, poverty reduction, literacy, HIV prevention, great, they are welcome to operate. But if they touch on issues like religious freedom, sensitive issues, that's where trouble begins.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Okay. So outside NGOs that are looking to help generate grassroots political action in terms of political reform don't have access, or are they beginning to have access or is the government too repressive so they cannot even get off the ground?

[Diem Do]

I want to use one example. I understand that the Swedish government and the Swedish NGOs have been pushing for legal reform in Vietnam for quite some time. There are projects and Swedish NGOs operating in Vietnam that are working on legal reforms, and the government will allow that to a certain extent. They can push, but there's a limit and if you cross that limit then that's trouble.

To sum up, I think the Government of Vietnam today is smart enough to know that they need to put on at least the best face. They will allow certain activities, as long those activities do not cross the line they draw. If you cross the line, then you have to close up shop and leave.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

We're also hearing testimony on the human rights issues due to the political situation in North Korea, for example. One of the things that has been mentioned numerous times is getting information to the people. In North Korea, information is trickling in on thumb drives and things of this nature to the people. It's building that encouragement.

You've talked about the trade end of discussions in terms of attaching human rights issues to trade agreements, which we agree with 100%.

How do we get alternative information to the people? You mentioned that the government has clamped down on bloggers, Internet access, and that type of thing. How would we get information to the people for them to be able to use it?

[Diem Do]

The Internet.... In fact, part of the reason why the situation in Vietnam has been changing over the last 10 years is because of the proliferation of Internet use in Vietnam. Right now in Vietnam, out of 90 million people, there are about 40 million Internet users, people who have access to the Internet. Twenty-five million people have a Facebook account. That's a very high number for a country like Vietnam.

The government did try, has been trying, and is still trying to exert control over the Internet. Back in 2009, they actually shut down Facebook for a few months. But then when the young people protested so much, they had to bring it back up again. So the Internet is still a powerful tool for us to get information into Vietnam. Of course, they put up firewalls and they try to put in different kinds of blocks, but if there's a block, people will find a way to circumvent it. People have been circumventing it. Because of the Internet, information has been getting out there. People have access to information through non-traditional channels.

In my testimony, I did make a recommendation about pushing forward to guarantee Internet freedom in Vietnam, to support Internet freedom in Vietnam. Pressuring the government into respecting the Internet for Vietnam would go a long way in helping to get information out.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

As we've mentioned, the diaspora is represented quite strongly here. How can the kind of work that they are able to do in order to help bring about change and reform in Vietnam be supported? I guess an additional question to that would be: is there any threat to family members with people from the diaspora actively working to make reform in Vietnam?

[Diem Do]

Yes, people who are active over here would quite often find themselves being denied visas to enter Vietnam. There are numerous cases of people, even after getting a visa to enter Vietnam, getting stopped at the airport and getting sent back out right away, numerous times. I can cite you numerous cases of people who are active out here and go back for family visits. Maybe their mother or father passed away and they go back for the funeral. They get picked up by the police, questioned, held for a few days, and deported. It's very common. Vietnamese Canadians, Vietnamese Americans, and Vietnamese Germans all experience that. If you are vocal, if you are active, you will experience that kind of treatment from the Vietnamese government.

In many cases, their families in Vietnam also get into trouble and are questioned and harassed by the police. It's very common.

[Tyrone Benskin, NDP, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you. That's a lot of information, and thank you very much for a very succinct but fulsome presentation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Benskin.

Ms. Grewal signalled to me that she had an additional question. Is it acceptable to the committee for her to place that question?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.