Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 21st, 2015

[Diem Do]

I'm not sure how we would classify Mr. Hun Sen's government. At least at the ground level the people of Cambodia enjoy more freedom than the people of Vietnam. By all means, by traditional western democratic standards, I think the current Cambodian government doesn't really quite measure up. However, relatively speaking, if you compare the two societies, I am sad to say—happy for the Cambodian people and sad for the Vietnamese people—that we do not have the same kind of leeway or flexibility as the Cambodian people are enjoying right now.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

The reason I'm asking about the neighbouring countries....You also talked about South Korea being a destination for a lot of the human trafficking. As difficult as it may be to address some of these issues in Vietnam itself, how much can be done through working with neighbouring countries?

[Diem Do]

The Taiwanese and South Korean governments have been very supportive. I do not, myself, work directly on these issues, but I have associates and I know groups who work on these issues. In my communication with them, they do enjoy quite a bit of support from the Taiwanese and South Korean governments on this issue. I have to say that.

For cases in China or Hong Kong, as you may have guessed, we really don't have much of an ability to penetrate into that particular area and to resolve the issues. We basically contain our activities in Taiwan and South Korea at this point.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

You gave us four recommendations for how we can respond or work with the Vietnamese government itself, but how much effort should we be putting on countries like Cambodia, or even China, to bear some influence on the Vietnamese government?

[Diem Do]

For example, in Cambodia, the issue of child trafficking would go a long way if the Government of Canada would address the issue through Cambodia, whether it's from Vietnam or any country. In my experience, I have seen the problem there.

The same thing goes for other countries. If we can lend a helping hand in dealing with this issue or assisting them in any way, that would probably be very much appreciated. But then again, as I said, the Taiwanese and South Korean governments have been very supportive. They are aware of the problem and you do sense that they want to help to deal with this.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

What about not just in regard to the trafficking but in regard to diplomatic pressure for human rights improvements in general?

Is it better to put all of our efforts into encouraging the Vietnamese government or should we also get other countries or surrounding countries on board with us?

[Diem Do]

My view is that we probably should be focusing our attention more on the Vietnamese government.

I was in Ottawa six months ago in November and I had a chance to meet with a number of members of Parliament to discuss the prospect for change in Vietnam.

I want to sidetrack for just one minute. This is the first time in a long time that we actually see a real chance for change coming to Vietnam. This is the window of opportunity. Exerting more human rights issues on the Vietnamese, human rights pressure on the Vietnamese government, will go a long way to bring about at least some changes and push the government further down the track of positive change.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Why is the window now?

[Diem Do]

Because they are experiencing unprecedented problems and pressure, both externally and internally, compared to 20 years ago, 15 years ago, even 10 years ago. Their control over Vietnamese society is cracking.

The fact that they unleashed one of the worst crackdowns over the last 20 years is a sure sign that they are being cornered. They have to react. They have to retaliate. The encouraging thing is that despite it being the worst crackdown over the last 20 years, the number of activists right now in Vietnam is increasing. Compared to years ago, the number of people being involved is increasing. There are more protests than ever before. People are less afraid to speak out. People are pushing back.

Just a couple of weeks ago, we had a massive labour strike and walkout in Vietnam. Some 90,000 workers walked off the job for the first time ever. People are pushing back. We can clearly see that if you compare now, 2015, to 2005. It's clear that they're being pushed back and they are retreating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Professor Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to begin by commending our witness on the well-organized testimony regarding human rights violations in Vietnam and the specific recommendations that you've offered us. I also want to commend the excellent work of the Vietnam international coalition. I've had the pleasure of meeting with you and members of your group, and we've been the beneficiary of your work.

I'll also take this opportunity to express appreciation for the large number of members and supporters of the Vietnamese-Canadian community who are here today. To see this kind of engagement in the parliamentary system is really very encouraging.

Your testimony included expressed reference to what might be called the criminalization of fundamental freedoms in Vietnam: freedom of expression, assembly, association, religion, political advocacy, and the like—very much the fundamental freedoms in our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I might add. There has been, I noted, an increasing arrest and prosecution and imprisonment of lawyers who have been acting, let's say, on behalf of human rights defenders in recent years.

I'll put my questions altogether and you can answer them either sequentially or together. Why is this happening? Is it the case that lawyers are in fact being singled out for their human rights advocacy? Can international advocacy by parliamentarians or otherwise help in terms of the plight of these human rights lawyers? Do you have any suggestions in that regard?

Also, given the fact that Vietnam is as you've described a one-party state, and given the corruption of the legal system, can these lawyers have any effect within Vietnam?

[Diem Do]

By my own experience and as far as I know, for a country of 90 million people we have a total of five practising human rights lawyers. These five are constantly harassed and intimidated by the government. I'm afraid that if this keeps going on we'll soon have four, then three, then two, and then we'll get to zero.

I have had the opportunity to at least communicate with some of these five brave individuals in the past to see and understand how difficult life can be for them.

So why? It is because I think 10 or even five years ago there was no such thing as human rights lawyers in Vietnam. In recent years we have begun to see people who are willing to take on these cases because again we can see that over the last 10 years the control of the Vietnamese government over society is cracking. As more and more people are challenging the government, and as more and more people are being brought to trial, there is a need for some lawyers to speak out and to defend these people. It is because of that need we have begun to see people come out and take on these cases.

A few years back we had more than five, but now we've dropped down to five. The government knows that one of the ways to discourage people to take these cases to court and one of the ways to silence people is to put pressure on these human rights lawyers so that they will not take on these cases anymore, and these people will go to trial with no legal representation—none whatsoever.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Are there specific ways in which we might be able to support those human rights lawyers and thereby protect them, if you will, against the oppression of the Communist Party?

[Diem Do]

Yes, there are a number of ways.

For those human rights lawyers who have had their licences stripped from them—and there are about three or four who I can name—we can put pressure to have their licence to practice put back in effect.

We can push the Vietnamese government on legal reform, for example, legal proceedings. Lawyers sometimes are given a day's notice of the trial. Sometimes it's only half a day's notice. You cannot prepare for a trial if you are only given a day or half a day. We can push them for legal reform in the sense that lawyers should be granted access to their clients while the clients are being detained. It's very common in Vietnam that these lawyers are denied access to their clients. So legal reform is the second way.

The first one is to make sure that these people get the protection they need, and for those who have had their licences taken away, these should be reinstituted. Legal reform for change is the second approach.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

What about the judiciary? Is there any semblance of any independent judiciary in Vietnam?

[Diem Do]

I'm sad to say that I have yet to see any glimmers of hope. The judiciary system is completely under the control of the Communist Party. All judges are appointed. They are under the direction of the government.

As I mentioned, in the overwhelming majority of political cases all the sentences were already predetermined. The judge was just there to keep order in the court, basically. It's not uncommon to see in political trials that while a witness is standing there, trying to plead their case, the judge would be pouring tea, chit-chatting and drinking tea as if they don't care. They don't listen. It's captured on video. You can go on YouTube. You can see for yourself how at these political trials some judges are just chit-chatting and they don't even pay attention. I have yet to see any glimmers of hope.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have one last, quick question. Has your organization met with or made any representations, for example, to the International Bar Association, which could be a kind of advocacy group on behalf of the human rights lawyers in Vietnam?

[Diem Do]

Yes, we are currently working with the International Bar Association. We work with the Media Legal Defence Initiative. We work with Lawyers Without Borders. We work with those groups. We try to have these human rights lawyers, the very precious few, brought out for legal training so that they can hone their skills. Those are the kinds of things we have been trying to do, and we will still continue to do it.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Professor Cotler.

We're going back to the government side, to Mr. Sweet now.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I just want to mention three quick things. One, we have quite a high-profile gentleman named Thanh Campbell, who is one of those who came over from Vietnam in a boat years ago and has written a book. He's making very public the plight of the Vietnamese today.

Also, we have a champion in Hamilton, the Reverend John Smith, who was working with, and really leading, the group that brought many of the Vietnamese here when they were evacuating Vietnam, and they are now living here with very successful lives.

I just want to echo the comments of my colleague Professor Cotler. I'm very impressed. I think this is probably the largest diaspora that we've seen at a committee meeting. It represents the dedication that you have for your brothers and sisters back home to bring a greater level of independence and freedom for them. Commendations to you.

You had mentioned to my colleague about the patronage that the government wants to get from China, but you've also talked about the corruption that's endemic in this Community Party. Do you sense, along with the other movement you've talking about, some kind of crackdown from the Chinese? They're going through their own purge in Beijing from the fact that they understand how difficult it is to try to retain power if the people see that there's open corruption. Do you sense any positive movement in that regard?

[Diem Do]

The Vietnamese government has tried numerous times over the last 10 to 15 years. They launched one anti-corruption campaign after another, but pretty quickly people realized that these were just gimmicks, because one campaign after another has not produced any concrete results. The problems keep getting worse and worse. Again, there's no positive development yet.

The government's still talking about anti-corruption, and believe me, they will have one more campaign. I'm not surprised. Whether or not it's going to get anything done or not is a different matter.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

In their case it's just window dressing, but no serious movement by any of the players who have been fomenting the corruption.

[Diem Do]

Exactly.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The last number I've been able to see is that around 200 political prisoners are behind bars in Vietnam. Do you have an exact number? Is your group able to document the names of the individuals who are in prison? Do you document that?