Evidence of meeting #7 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lanka.
A video is available from Parliament.
December 3rd, 2013 / 1:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm glad that you asked that question.
Mr. Petrasek, I'm really glad that you're here today, because you have outlined two unique things.
This will sound like a statement, but I would like you to comment.
I think it's a great idea for Canada to engage with the NPC in the north. And regarding the idea you just mentioned, UN remuneration is often much higher than domestic pay for the troops of some countries involved in peacekeeping. Like you said, the prestige element plays a role in it too. I think those are both very good ideas, and I know our researchers will capture them for our later report.
I had asked a couple of witnesses previously—and it sounds like you've reviewed all of the testimony—about the war widows. I'm concerned about them. I've heard numbers from 40,000 to 90,000, and unless they've migrated, I think they would primarily be in the north.
Are they the responsibility of the NPC? Do you know of any actions that the Sri Lankan regime is taking right now to try to look after their needs? Please elaborate, if you can.
1:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
You referred to the earlier testimony.
I really can't add anything to what you received from Dr. Saravanamuttu. He's much more knowledgeable on that issue, and he spoke to you. There is a big debate about the numbers. Hopefully, the census of the deaths will help us to pin that down more, but I really can't comment on the adequacy of the programs undertaken to date. There's a lot of controversy about them. That's what I know. I think, if I got the gist of his response, he said there was good and bad. That was my sense. There were steps being taken, but they were insufficient. I can't add to the answer you got from him. I'm sorry.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
No need for an apology.
In fact, I will go to one other area that he commented on too, where you might have some input, and that is the militarization of every public service, the bureaucracy, etc. You mentioned that the citizenry has basically turned a blind eye to whatever human rights infractions they see because of what's happening in the country, the economy, etc.
Is there any movement at all in the general citizenry regarding their concern not only about human rights violations but also about this militarization? Is that not beginning to spawn questions in the general population?
1:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
From when I was there in June, the first thing I'll say is that not everyone is going along with it.
Sri Lanka still hosts a very active, brave, and serious civil society, some of whose members have testified to you, and it has always impressed me, going there. Essentially, you go there and you're humbled quite quickly about what advice you can provide, because there's no shortage of Ph.D.'s running around Sri Lanka dealing with law reform or constitutional issues and what else. There's a lot of expertise there, and all those people have not got along. A lot of them are very critical. There are very active anti-corruption organizations in Sri Lanka, very active monitoring of elections organizations. There are very active organizations still working on reconciliation and on women's rights. There's a whole range of activities that people are pursuing, and they are not going along with it.
As for the president's constituency, to the point at which it appears that some of the people who are currently profiting may not be able to continue, yes, the president could be in trouble, because the profit is in fact intended for just a very small group. Insofar as the military—led by his brother, the defence secretary—is enriching the family and not spreading the riches more broadly among the constituency that supports him, problems that could arise. You saw that a little bit in the impeachment of the chief justice, which related to a personal and business matter that she had gotten herself involved in. A lot of the protest on the street by people who hadn't protested before was from a sense of “Look, if this can happen, none of us are safe”.
Having said that, if it came to an election, people might still back the president, but there are areas where there has been a backlash, and it could grow and deepen if the economic progress were not seen to be shared—at least among the constituency. They're not so concerned about the Tamils in the north, but the progress must be seen to be shared at least among the constituency in the south. There have been signs that the president is not getting the right advice on how far he can go with amassing political and economic power within his small circle.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Despite their vibrant civil society, one of the problems with those who would be human rights defenders and would look for legislative reform, etc., is that the media at large is still muzzled and is still either self-censoring or has been threatened by the government with the white vans, up until now.
1:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, there are problems with the media accurately reporting the situation, but even if they did, I'm not sure the president is reading it. It's almost like a regal, court-like approach. It was quite shocking if you watched the coverage of the press conferences around the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. He seemed genuinely surprised at the questions on human rights, which can only indicate that he's getting very bad advice. That is a typical situation where a leadership gets up to the regal level. People simply can't explain it. It's not safe to say what the actual situation is, so the president's living in almost an alternative reality.
The media could report these things, but the president may still not pay attention to them. There have been so many indications of this kind of personal pursuit of power. Sri Lanka's Parliament has 220 or 230 seats. Somebody will google it and tell me I'm wrong, but I believe there are 80 ministers. The approach to any potential source of dissent is simply to continue. Everybody is brought in. There is no effective opposition in the country, for complicated reasons, not just because they're muzzled but also because of the complicated politics of the country. There is no effective parliamentary opposition.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Before we go to our last questioner, Monsieur Jacob, I'm just going to ask a question.
What is their electoral system? Is it based on ridings? Is it a party list system? Do you have any idea?
1:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It's a complicated system and I can't get into the details. There are ridings, but there's also some proportional element in it that I'm not exactly sure of. In any possible configuration, he and his party still have enormous support.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Right, and as a practical matter, it would be unwise for us to make suggestions about electoral reform for other countries in this committee. That was just a curiosity matter for me.
Mr. Jacob, you have the floor.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I would like to thank Mr. Petrasek for being with us this afternoon.
In your opinion, to what degree has the Sri Lankan diaspora in Canada influenced the Prime Minister's decision to implement this boycott?
1:50 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I don't know. I can't speculate. I know that one group of people believes it is about winning votes in ridings where there may be a significant Tamil population. And others say, no, this is a principled position that arose out of a genuine concern for the human rights situation in Sri Lanka. I really am not privy to that.
The one thing I would say is that I do not believe it's fair to suggest that the bulk of any diaspora community in Canada—new arrival or old arrival—would ever vote on a foreign policy issue. In any diaspora community, there's an element of the policy towards the mother country being a key factor to their vote. But I think the Tamil diaspora, like any diaspora in Canada, has many other electoral concerns. The Prime Minister may gain a lot of rhetorical support, but when it comes to voting day, is this what the Tamils of Scarborough will vote for? Is it because they're concerned about issues of employment or transportation, or Rob Ford? I don't know. I can't speculate. I'm hesitant to simply suggest a whole community en masse will vote on a foreign policy issue. I just don't see any evidence of that. I don't know what motivated the Prime Minister.
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Thank you.
My second question has to do with Sri Lanka.
Has Canada's boycott been broadcast in the Sri Lankan media? If so, how has it been used by the government?
1:55 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, it was widely publicized two years ago when the Prime Minister first stated his intention, and then also in October when he made it final that he would not attend. At the actual Commonwealth summit, it was David Cameron who stole the show for the reasons I touched on earlier.
I will say this. Whatever my views or your views are on the decision to boycott, I have yet to meet a member of Sri Lankan civil society who didn't welcome it, regardless of whether they thought it was done for domestic political reasons. Frankly, they wouldn't care. What they wanted was a very powerful protest signal sent to the Sri Lankan government, and they felt that Stephen Harper did that, so they welcomed it.
In June when I was in Sri Lanka, I attended a civil society conference and made a point of asking people what they thought about thePrime Minister saying that he'd be unlikely to come. Should he come to the Commonwealth Summit? I didn't find a single one saying he should come. Some answers were nuanced, but essentially the almost unanimous view was that it was a good idea to boycott the meeting.
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Jacob NDP Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I have a third question.
You mentioned that the main problem was the fact that power was concentrated in the hands of the Sri Lankan president and his small inner circle. Could you provide us with more details on that dynamic and its repercussions for the northern region of the country in particular?
1:55 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I can only expand by saying it has very worrying implications for the rule of law, which we've already seen in relation to the changes to the constitution, which have now ended the term limits on the president and have affected the judicial appointment structure in the country and the impeachment of the chief justice. So the continuing narrowing of the circle of power and influence and the economic power in this small group have worrying implications for the rule of law in the country.
Sri Lanka has had many problems in the past, going back several decades, but it has had reasonably fair elections. It has had reasonably fair policing with some key issues in the north and east. There have always been issues in relation to the armed conflict, but it hasn't been an authoritarian state. The tendency is towards that, and that's quite shocking. For all of Sri Lanka's problems, it wasn't a place where, from the time you arrived you started being careful about what you said.
On my last visit in June, I felt a little bit of that, whereas during my other three or four visits during the civil war, I never felt there was an issue I couldn't talk about. This sense—and it's only my sense—that I was freer to speak out during my visits at a time of civil war than I was during a time of peace was significant. My only comment would be that it's a very worrying attempt to monopolize power, which is destroying the institutions Sri Lanka needs to have a proper reconciliation.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you, Mr. Jacob.
Before we let you go, Professor, so that we can deal with one item of committee business, I have two things to bring up with you.
First, I had the impression—and I could be wrong—that you had more extensive notes and that you edited them somewhat in order to comply with the time constraints. If that is the case, I'm wondering if you would be willing to submit the notes you had so that they could be translated and distributed to all of our members.
2 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The only thing I was going to add was a series of key points, including things like what are the human rights reforms needed in the country. I made a series of eight points, but all of those have already been read into your record by previous witnesses. If you're looking for a set of clear, solid recommendations, I would direct you to the human rights reports, but also to the work of the International Crisis Group. They have a very active and excellent program on Sri Lanka, very knowledgeable and dedicated researchers, and very detailed policy recommendations on human rights as well as on the reconciliation issues. I'm happy to give them to you, but there's nothing that won't already be in your testimony.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
There was another question I wanted to ask you, but it may be too broad. We see on the one hand the militarization of the Sri Lankan political system and economy—the odd juxtaposition of urban development with the military in a single department is a peculiar one, to say the least—and on the other hand, we see the president relying on the party system for power, as you've said.
I'm just wondering if this is a situation where the support of the military is now essential to maintaining political power and that they therefore must effectively be put in a position where they can be economically rewarded through the rejigging of the power structure. Or is this not the case?
2 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. You may know that at the conclusion of the war, the general who successfully concluded the war was dismissed and tried to run for president. He was imprisoned and completely intimidated, so the president showed that he can take out the generals he wants to take out.
With regard to the military in Sri Lanka, traditionally there's never been a fear of a coup or a threat of a coup. It was a very small institution. It's been significantly expanded as a result of the war and actually has grown in numbers as opposed to declining in numbers now that the war is over. I don't see it as a separate centre of political power. Essentially, it's under the clear direction of the civilian administration.
In relation to your point about urban development, it is an odd juxtaposition but with an honourable pedigree. You'll remember that it was Napoleon who of course amassed political and military power and then took over reorganizing the streets of Paris in the early 19th century.
2 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes. There is this sense of it being a regal court, that now “I'm actually going to redo the city”. It gets a little out of hand.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
That is an interesting parallel. Thank you for that.
Colleagues, we are at the end of this meeting.
I'm going to dismiss our witness with our thanks and then ask everybody to remain here to deal with one very brief item of committee business.
Of course, professor, we're not kicking you out of the room. We're just allowing ourselves to go on to the next item of business.
2 p.m.
NDP
