Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 17th, 2018

[Dr. Kilic Bugra Kanat]

I don't know the details of these investigations. One more time, as in the previous question, I don't know the details about these investigations. I just want to provide a picture of the Turkish political structure right now and what it has gone through for the last two or three years, but I don't know the details about these investigations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Without speculating in details, I can tell you that it would seem to me, and certainly it would seem to the OHCHR, who describe this as an alarming pattern, that this is a gross abuse of human rights in the case of these women and their children in detention.

With that, I'll pass the floor to MP Tabbara.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to pass on time to the Honourable Judy Sgro.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, Humber River—Black Creek, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, frankly, to the committee and to the chair for taking this on at several of your meetings. I know the tremendous demands that are on your plate. Thank you for taking this issue up.

I have to say, Mr. Kanat, I have heard your comments many times, and it's a continued repeat that everything is good, everything is fine, they're all terrorists, and all the rest of it. I think, frankly, Canada has respected Turkey as a NATO partner. I am the past chair of the Canada-Turkey parliamentary friendship group. I said “past” because I am no longer in that position. I could no longer stay quiet, and I don't believe Canada should stay quiet. I think it's far too long that we have given a level of respect to Turkey to solve the problems they were dealing with and to resume respect for democracy and human rights. I believe that time is up. It is time that the rest of the world starts standing up and demanding that our friend Turkey started respecting their citizens and releasing the many people who are there under detention under very little actual evidence. The fact that Turkey has used state of emergency measures six times has to tell you that it's overstepping where it's going.

What do you think Turkey is going to look like a year from now if you continue on the same path that Turkey is on now? What's Turkey going to look like a year from now? Do you think Turkey will have any friends left in the world?

[Dr. Kilic Bugra Kanat]

At the end of my conversation, I basically tried to summarize the issues and why Turkey would be part of the Western-aligned structure because of its commitment to the European Union, because in a recent summit both the European Union and Turkey reiterated their commitment to continue their negotiations, continue to accession negotiations, and electoral democracy in which the people—the vibrant middle class, the youth, the women—are getting much more powerful. They are getting much more empowered.

I'm hoping that the electoral democracy, the society, and the commitments to European institutions will put Turkey in a better situation, especially after the alleviation of these threats. We are talking about a country that has a 600-kilometre border with Syria, with Iraq, that is hosting 3.5 million refugees, that has been following an open-door policy and faced the security repercussions of this open-door policy with trying to deal with YPG and trying to deal with ISIS at the same time.

It is a little bit complicated when you ask what it would look like. It will also depend on the co-operation of the international community against these threats on its southern border.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, Humber River—Black Creek, ON]

You're talking as if the coup never happened and democracy was continuing on in Turkey, which it is not. We continue to see human rights violated. Women, the wives of many of the people who are detained, have fled to Georgia. They have no passports. They're stuck with their families in isolation, in hiding, so afraid of getting picked up and taken back to Turkey. Some of their husbands have already been successful in Canada. I have met with many of them. You continue to detain dual citizens and have finally given them consular access after months.

I turned my comments over to Mr. Kanat because I wanted to ensure that Mr. Kanat knew my comments on what he has been saying—that I've heard that for several years, and I am no longer being patient and giving you space to do what I believe Turkey is doing when it's violating and should no longer be part of NATO at all.

Mr. Neve, thank you so much for being here and for the great work you do as Amnesty International. Regarding the five dual citizens who are being detained, we seem to have not been able to make any progress whatsoever in having their cases moved up and the individuals returned to Canada for justice here, if necessary. Do you have any other suggestions as to things we could do that would assist there?

[Alex Neve]

It's important that Canada remains firmly seized of the cases, and I think that has happened in many instances. At fairly senior levels, concerns have been raised. I know Parliamentary Secretary Alghabra, for instance, has repeatedly raised the cases. That's very important. We need to see those kinds of concerns being raised at more senior levels.

Both Minister Freeland and even the Prime Minister should be looking for opportunities they may have. Prime Minister Trudeau will, amongst other things, in the context of G20 meetings have an opportunity perhaps to meet with President Erdogan. Those kinds of opportunities need to be raised.

All of the cases are at different stages in terms of process right now. Some have still not come to trial. In one case in particular, Mr. Hanci's case, he has been in solitary confinement for most of the time in pretrial detention for over 20 months now, and he's still waiting for his trial to begin.

Some have been convicted and are awaiting appeals. The government needs to continue to raise the concern, which is a wider concern that applies in all these cases, that many of these instances seem very weak cases, going forward largely on the basis of the kinds of circumstantial evidence I highlighted before. If you have ByLock on your phone, if you used this particular bank, or if your kids went to this particular school, that's enough to allege that you're a terrorist sympathizer. That's not acceptable, and Canada should be making clear that this is not the rule of law and fundamental justice for anyone, and certainly not for a Canadian citizen.

Lastly, continuing to push for regular, unhindered consular access is absolutely important. You're right that it has finally been granted, after an unacceptably long delay, but I don't think there's confidence and assurance that it will continue with the frequency and regularity needed, so that pressure will be important as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much, MP Sgro.

We're now going to move to MP Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Mr. Neve, for your testimony today. I have three questions for you. Since we have seven minutes, I'd like to get them out to you.

First, Cheryl Hardcastle, who is our regular committee representative, and Hélène Laverdière, who is the foreign affairs critic for the NDP, wrote to the foreign affairs minister in February 2017 regarding the five Canadians being detained in Turkey. They did not receive a response until February 2018, so it took a full year. We're concerned, of course, that the government is not taking this seriously, to take a full year to even reply to a letter. Do you have comments about that?

Secondly, in what ways could we be putting pressure on the Turkish government to respect human rights? As an ally, we're seeing a real deterioration there, as you've recounted. What are other ways that Canadians or the Canadian federal government could be putting pressure on Turkey to respect human rights?

Thirdly, we have been hearing accounts from The Independent and The New York Times about the catastrophic situation in Afrin in northwestern Syria, the killing of hundreds of civilians by the Turkish air force and the Turkish army. We are also hearing accounts of ethnic cleansing taking place, or the initial signs of ethnic cleansing.

I wonder if you give credence to those reports or if it's a situation that Amnesty International is following worldwide.

[Alex Neve]

That's regrettable that there was a one-year delay in that letter. Obviously, I think the Canadian government needs to be concerned about the totality and entirety of what's happening in Turkey right now, but there is a particular extra dimension when it comes to Canadians who are ensnared in that situation.

Aside from the letter, I do know, as I said, that at the level of the parliamentary secretary there was quite a bit of attention being paid to those cases. I think we have been lacking more senior-level engagement. Perhaps the delay in that letter reflects that. I think it's really important that this start to become much more regularly on the minister's agenda and the Prime Minister's agenda as well.

In terms of pressure points open to Canada, certainly one is that Canada needs to speak out more. There have been a few very mild statements of concern. There have been occasional tweets that have gone out. But you would be hard pressed to find, if you really wanted to go back and get a clear sense as to what Canada has been saying publicly about the situation in Turkey over these last 20-plus months, anything particularly persuasive or impressive; you would have great difficulty in finding it. That's part of the kind of pressure that's needed here, I think.

What I would add to that, though, is the importance of a multilateral strategy around that. As I said in my remarks, Turkey really is getting a free ride, not just by Canada but by the world. There are some countries that have more persuasion and influence with Turkey than Canada does, most certainly, the EU being an obvious one. But countries elsewhere around the world, with whom Canada may have important relationships, may be key players here as well. If Canada is going to take the situation in Turkey seriously, I think it's developing that kind of multilateral joint strategy, which thinks about, then, how not to waste an opportunity, as we just did, like the UN Human Rights Council, and make sure there's a concerted effort among the number of countries to use that.

I could not agree more that the situation across the border in northern Syria, in Afrin, is a very, very serious concern. Amnesty has been following it and has issued a number of statements of concern. Our focus to date has primarily been with respect to very serious civilian casualties, by what we're concerned appears to be indiscriminate bombing and shelling. I don't have the time to go through them, but there are heartbreaking testimonies we've received from survivors of some of those families. For a variety of reasons, they had been led to believe by Turkish officials that their area was going to be safe or that civilian areas were not going to be bombed and then lo and behold their house was attacked when it was nowhere near any kind of military target.

It's becoming clear to us that there absolutely are some very serious violations of international law in how Turkey is carrying out that military campaign. It doesn't come as a surprise, because we know there are decades of concern about how Turkish forces have handled operations against Kurdish villages and Kurdish areas within Turkey as well, so why would it be any different across the border?

We'll continue to speak out, but I think that's another area where nations like Canada need to more clearly go on the record.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

You have another minute and half.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

My goodness, you were very concise.

Regarding the reports around ethnic cleansing, the reports today indicate that Kurdish signs are being ripped off in Afrin and are being replaced by signs in Turkish. There are numerous reports of homes being destroyed and Kurdish families being herded out of the region. These are all anecdotal and, of course, human rights organizations have not been allowed into that area to see to what extent ethnic cleansing is taking place.

In terms of Amnesty International, if these initial reports about ethnic cleansing taking place are true, what can the international community do to push back against what would be an egregious violation of human rights?

[Alex Neve]

We have heard those reports as well. While we have not yet been able to investigate them in such a way that we can confirm or corroborate them, I can assure you that's very live for us, including considering whether we may be able to get on the ground in some way to do some more direct investigation and so on.

If those reports are true, those are egregious violations of international law and would almost constitute, amongst other things, war crimes and crimes against humanity, which certainly should be taken up at the highest levels of the international system. One might even think of something like that appropriately being in front of the Security Council. It's also the kind of situation that very legitimately could lead to criminal prosecutions. Canada should be considering, if there was evidence to back it up and evidence that pointed to who was responsible.... Those are the kinds of things that, even under our own domestic universal jurisdiction laws for war crimes and crimes against humanity, we could and should be looking at to ensure individuals are held responsible. I think it also would be very important in the context of European settings, the European Union and the Council of Europe, that those issues are raised there.

Finally, of course, Turkey is subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights, and all of that would give rise to a legitimate case that should be taken in front of that body as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

We shall now move to MP Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank both of you for testifying before us today.

I have real concerns about the repression of Kurdish culture and Kurdish rights in general, something that has really been a hallmark of Turkish regimes going back to the founding of modern Turkey. We have three sessions, so I will be bringing up those points in later sessions.

I am going to be splitting my time, Mr. Chair, with my colleague MP Tabbara.

Professor, I would ask you a question in the time that I do have about the importance of Turkey from a strategic perspective in the west, in NATO, and how critical Turkey's role has been when it comes to maintaining security in the alliance and regional security at large in the Middle East. There is an argument to be made that as Turkey goes, so goes the Middle East. Many have made that argument, strategic analysts and the like. I wonder if you could comment on that.

While it's important to raise issues of human rights—my colleagues have done a great job of doing that here today, I think in a very legitimate way—I also want to hear the other side. I came in a bit late because I was running from another committee meeting. If you've addressed this in your presentation, just build on that, but if you haven't, then please enlighten the committee.

[Dr. Kilic Bugra Kanat]

Of course, especially since the beginning of the Arab Spring and the civil war in Syria, Turkey's geopolitical condition has become much more significant, and it is key for the western alliance section, the NATO alliance.

As I mentioned before, it not only has 600 kilometres of border with Syria, but it also neighbours Iraq, Iran, Armenia, part of Georgia to the sea, and part of Ukraine, so it is in a critical position in the Middle East. Because of that, the stability of the country is extremely important.

Before you entered the room, I enumerated some of the terrorist attacks that Turkey has faced in the last two years. The critical point is that these civil wars and the emerging failed states do not create problems only for the Middle East. They try to export insecurity towards the region, towards Turkey, and towards Europe as well.

Turkey has been very critical in basically sealing the border with Syria, trying to arrest people who are trying to be foreign fighters. So far, more than 2,000 people have been arrested for those charges, thousands of people were deported, and there is international co-operation with countries in NATO, with the United States, with European allies, to bring down any kind of international terrorist network, whether it is Al Qaeda or ISIS. We know that with the end of the operations in Syria the counter-terrorism operations will not end. It will take time. To have these operations globally, the world will need Turkey, and Turkey will need the world.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thanks very much.

I'll turn it over to my colleague.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

That was the question that I had. That's what happens when you're last.

Building on what my colleague has said, have there been numerous diplomatic ties between Turkey and maybe some of the Gulf states that are more stable in the region, some would argue, and also in terms of more diplomatic ties with the west—the European Union, Canada, and the United States—in solving the issue there?

As my colleague pointed out, the region is very unstable, very volatile at this time, and we need to ensure that we have a capable partner that can help us within this region and can bring much-needed stability to a ravished region. Could you comment on that?

[Dr. Kilic Bugra Kanat]

Since the beginning of the Syrian civil war, Turkey has basically engaged in any kind of diplomatic activity that tries to bring a political solution to the problem, starting with the Geneva process, Friends of Syria, Geneva II, and now the Astana process, the Vienna process, the Sochi process. Turkey has tried to engage with any country in the region, in the world actually, regardless of its orientation, to bring a political solution to the conflict. So far, there are three dimensions of this.

In terms of the humanitarian dimension, I think Turkey did its best to handle the refugee crisis, and it is still doing its best. Especially because of the inter-operations right now, the military post that Turkey is establishing in Idlib is trying to stop another humanitarian disaster and another refugee flow from Syria to Turkey.

Politically, as I mentioned, it engages in any kind of diplomatic activity that tries to bring a solution to the problem.

Militarily, with both Operation Euphrates Shield and Operation Olive Branch right now, it's trying to seal its border from any kind of terrorist organizations that will create a security concern for Turkey, and terrorist organizations that may bring security concerns for the whole of Europe. As the anti-ISIS operations are winding down in Syria, the most significant problems are foreign fighters. Especially on this issue, Turkey and the western allies are working together in order to handle a possible problem in the crisis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

We have a couple of minutes left, so we're going to go to MP Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Professor, I only have a couple of minutes. With all due respect, I profoundly disagree with you. I think all the evidence points to the most sinister, manipulative process of power grabbing that we've ever seen in the current climate of the Middle East. It behooves me to understand why the fiercest fighters against ISIS, the Kurdish peshmerga, would be the targets of Erdogan. These are people who not only fought against ISIS but had a very clear understanding of equal human rights. They fought well against ISIS and continue to do so.

My question is for you, Mr. Neve. Could you tell me if you're familiar with the case of Pastor Brunson, an American pastor? What could you tell us about it?

[Alex Neve]

I'm only aware of it. I actually don't know many of the details, so I'm really not able to add anything. I know that there are many who are very concerned about his plight.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much. It's a very similar case to your staff, who were on the ground doing good work and then were jailed in this process.

Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

Thank you to both of our guests for your testimony. We will continue with this study in the other two sessions coming up in the next week and a half.

The meeting is adjourned.