Evidence of meeting #12 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was honduras.
A recording is available from Parliament.
May 31st, 2016 / 1:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank our witnesses for being with us today.
In 2015, the government of Honduras enacted a law to protect human rights defenders. It set up a national council for the protection of human rights defenders as well as a protection system.
I think, Mr. Cavallaro, your organization has called this law a significant step forward. I'm wondering whether you can expand on the function of that council. Is it showing some effectiveness? What's this protection system that is being referred to, and does it operate independently from the regime?
1:50 p.m.
Professor of Law, Stanford Law School, As an Individual
Thank you very much, Mr. Anderson, for the question. Again we're happy to remit further information in writing to the subcommittee.
Our understanding of the creation of this structure is that it's an initial step forward. It provides a legal basis for coordination of protection measures. The Inter-American Commission does a lot of work with states in the western hemisphere, particularly states in which human rights defenders and journalists are at risk, to create and develop and strengthen robust protection mechanisms.
There's a very significant range between on paper having some body that coordinates and having the resources to provide cellphones and security systems in the homes and workplaces of human rights defenders, to provide security through police or others who are trusted, independently trained, and not the same police who may be responsible for the threats themselves. There needs to be a training structure. There need to be resources.
I don't think that's really what we're seeing in Honduras, and the most convincing evidence of this is that in the past year, after the creation of this body, people who have had precautionary measures ordered by the Inter-American Commission have continued to be killed. Again, that evidence is highly suggestive of the inadequacy of the mechanisms. It's not necessarily absolutely dispositive. It's conceivable that the protection mechanism failed although it was working well.
I don't think it's working very well. I think the two folks who are with us from Mexico and Honduras might have some views about the inadequacy of the protection in practice in Honduras.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Okay, I'm willing to listen to them, if they do.
The committee did a study about a year ago and did a report in March 2015. How do you see the progression of Honduras since then? Do you see it moving in a positive direction or a negative direction? Where does it rank in the region?
1:50 p.m.
Professor of Law, Stanford Law School, As an Individual
The commission does not rank countries per se. There is, however, what's called chapter 4 of our annual report, in which countries that face severe challenges as defined in the rules of procedure of the commission with regard to human rights will be treated separately. Honduras has been, to use the jargon of the Inter-American system, in chapter 4 since the 2009 coup.
The overall conclusions of your subcommittee's report in 2015, which I've had a chance to review, are quite similar to the conclusions of the Inter-American Commission in a report that was based on a visit at the end of 2014 and on continued research throughout 2015, approved in December 2015 and issued in February 2016.
I would say that the situation has been stagnant, that in the past year or two, since the data points incorporated and analyzed in your early 2015 report, there has not been significant change, except insofar as this case involving Berta Cáceres and other people in COPINH, the organization with which she works, is concerned.
This case demonstrates that despite the pressure, despite international concern, people who are very high-profile—Beta Cáceres was a very high-profile, leading, brilliant human rights defender. The fact that they were unable to protect her and others from her community and other rights activists indicates that progress is not occurring, that we may be stagnant, we may be on a downward slope. Those I would say are the possibilities.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Okay.
I'd like to turn to Ms. Caceres.
I think Mr. Soto was pretty clear on his thoughts about the treatment he received. I think I can speak on behalf of the committee when I express our sympathies to you, but I'm wondering, when four suspects have been arrested, what hope you have that justice will be carried out
1:55 p.m.
Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras, As an Individual
I would like to say we believe that after the assassination of my mother and another colleague, we have lived a number of violations to our rights as victims, among which is the investigation that has been decreed. In Honduras there is no legal division to exclude us from the process of investigation. After what we stated regarding the mistrust in the process of investigation, and that it be decreed, we have more fear regarding what will happen with the investigation regarding the arrests of the elite responsible for those who committed the murder. I believe this is done in too much of a hurry because there was no historic record, so that these people may be accused in the end.
Apart from this, as Gustavo Castro was saying, the intellectual authors have not yet been found, the people who have participated in the intellectual part of this murder. We continue insisting that for us as a family, and as an organization, the sole way of guaranteeing a process of justice and ending with impunity is through an independent group of experts, which would guarantee transparency and objectivity in the investigation.
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Miller Liberal Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC
Thank you.
I want to echo the condolences expressed by Mr. Anderson and Mr. Cavallaro. Again, Ms. Caceres, my condolences for your loss.
This question is for Mr. Cavallaro.
We had a report a year ago, which MP Anderson referred to. One of the recommendations was that Canada continue engagement as a donor country and as a trading partner, with a view as well to promoting human rights.
The report referred to Gildan Activewear as being one the biggest private employers in the country. It's a Canadian company. There are other countries pulling back their aid or their trade with Honduras in the light of a breakdown of civil society.
What do you believe is the way forward for change? I know there is very little time, but could you touch briefly on what the ultimate outcome would be, other than the inherent value of shining a light on the human rights abuses with an OAS investigation?
1:55 p.m.
Professor of Law, Stanford Law School, As an Individual
If I may, let me take those questions in reverse order.
In addition to shining a light and investigating this case, an international body could provide assistance, first, with helping to identify those responsible in this matter, and second, in working with authorities to identify lines of investigation in this case that may establish patterns of abuse, which we have documented. What we suspect at this stage but do not know is that those who may have ordered the killing of Berta Cáceres may also have involvement in threats and incidents of violence against other rights defenders, others who have opposed the intervention or engagement of extractive industries, and others who have been dissidents or have spoken out against the military coup in 2009.
What we know is that in Honduras, there is a cycle of impunity and there are many killings of those who oppose powerful interests. We know that judges and prosecutors are threatened and often killed. What is necessary to break that cycle of impunity, we believe, is a thorough investigation that doesn't stop with the hit men but goes up the chain of responsibility to those who are responsible, as a means of changing the dynamic of criminal investigation in Honduras, breaking the cycle of impunity, and moving towards a situation in which those who might order people killed stop and think that there might be criminal accountability for doing so. If they are not going to do it because their hearts are pure, let them at least do it because they think there is a functioning state that can investigate and prosecute them.
With regard to business investment, the Inter-American Commission has established doctrine and norms, more about what guidelines and rights must be respected by investors and by companies operating in different situations in which there is a potential for rights abuse. With regard to indigenous communities, there must be a thorough consultation under ILO 169, but under the case law of the Inter-American Court and the Commission on Human Rights there needs to be free, prior, and informed consent when an investment project has the potential to significantly alter the traditional lifestyles of indigenous and traditional communities. In other words, if it is a major investment project, free, prior, and informed consent....
We focus our work not on whether a particular company or country should or should not invest in a given country, Honduras, but on what norms you must follow if you are investing in Honduras. It is a somewhat different focus and it may not be directly responsive. That is a decision for you to make, whether to invest or not. What we say is that, if you are going to invest, there need to be rigorous guidelines.
Now, what I can say is that, in Honduras, those guidelines are not enforced. We see that not only in the tensions in the communities, but in the violations that occur in that context: threats, police abuse against demonstrators, police abuse against people who oppose extractive processes, and killings of people who are engaged in opposition to extractive processes. With that construct, it is difficult to support investment, but our position is that we hold whoever is engaged to the highest standards of human rights, and they have not been met in Honduras.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Thank you.
With that, seeing the time, we are going to draw the questioning to a close.
I want to thank you. I am sure I speak for all the members of this committee in thanking you for being here today and providing what, quite honestly, was riveting testimony.
In particular, Gustavo and Bertha, you stand as human rights defenders in the face of many challenges, none greater, Bertha, than the challenge and sacrifice that your mother faced. I know this is a legacy that is going to inspire many to continue speaking out and trying to make a difference in an area where, obviously, there are some significant human rights challenges. From everybody on this committee, thank you very much for testifying before us here today.
With that, I bring this committee meeting to a close.