Evidence of meeting #158 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was actually.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dafina Savic  Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Welcome, everybody. I'm very pleased to have today's subcommittee hearing on the Roma.

We have with us, from Montreal, Dafina Savic, who is the founder of Romanipe, a Montreal-based not-for-profit organization that fights discrimination against Roma worldwide. We are very pleased to have her as a witness today.

Ms. Savic, we will give you about 10 minutes to do your opening remarks, and then we will open up the floor to questions. As this is the first time that the subcommittee has heard on this topic, we are very much looking forward to your testimony.

Go ahead, Ms. Savic.

1:05 p.m.

Dafina Savic Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Thank you.

First and foremost, I want to thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to present the far-too-often ignored human rights situation of Romani people across the world today, a people whose very existence remains threatened, a people whose human dignity is continuously denied today across the world, a people whose fight remains largely invisible, and on which I will attempt to shed light today through my presentation.

In the Romani language, when greeting people, we say

[Witness spoke in Romani]

[English]

This translates to “I greet you with good will.”

I'm really hopeful that my presence here today will give you the will to take action on the often invisible human rights situation of Roma, which remains largely ignored today across the globe.

Seven years ago I founded a not-for-profit organization called Romanipe, whose main mission is to defend human dignity against human rights violations that Romani people face across the world. Our organization was built on the principle of unity. In that regard, it has worked in collaboration with many groups of people with whom we share suffering and has built collaborations with many different groups who have been victims of genocide. In the spirit of standing in solidarity but also in action with those groups, we also want to acknowledge our solidarity with people who have presented before this committee, namely indigenous peoples as well as the people of Burundi and the Rohingya in Myanmar. We stand with them in solidarity.

Almost 75 years ago today, the remaining 2,998 Romani prisoners of the gypsy family camp in Auschwitz-Birkenau were murdered en masse by the Nazis and their collaborators. According to the latest estimates, at least half a million Roma were killed by Nazis and their collaborators during the Second World War. Unfortunately, this history remains largely ignored, unknown and untaught globally.

Our organization has been fighting for the past eight years for the Canadian government to officially recognize the Romani genocide. On August 2 of last year the Canadian government, via Minister Freeland and Minister Rodriguez, acknowledged the commitment of the government to recognize the Romani genocide. Today we are still waiting for an official act of Parliament to be adopted so that recognition can officially be granted.

Recognition of the Romani genocide is highly important since the human rights situation of Roma and the hatred and racism against Roma remain very normalized forms of racism today given that the history of the Romani people, specifically during the Second World War, remains largely unknown and unrecognized.

During the Second World War, rhetoric portraying Roma as criminals was used by Nazis and their collaborators to justify the mass murder of at least half a million Romani people. Across European countries today, unfortunately we see that rhetoric being repeated. In many European countries, physical walls have been built to separate Roma from non-Romani citizens. These walls are not at borders but have actually been built within cities to separate Roma from non-Romani citizens. In countries like Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Romani children are disproportionately placed in segregated schools without prior testing based on the idea that Roma are mentally inferior to non-Roma.

This segregation has been documented and condemned by many organizations, such as Amnesty International, the European Roma Rights Centre and many others, which have spoken out and actually called on those countries to take concrete measures to end the segregation of Romani children in those countries. Unfortunately, as reported recently by Amnesty International and many other organizations, the segregation of Roma is still present in almost all of those countries.

As recently as 2012, cases of forced sterilization of Romani women were also documented in countries like Hungary and Slovakia. Governments of those countries have actually acknowledged that this was the case, yet no measures have been taken to actually offer compensation to the women who were forcibly sterilized in those countries.

Just recently, in fact last year, in countries like Ukraine, despite the many warnings of organizations like Amnesty International of the violent attacks inflicted on Romani settlements in Ukraine, a young Romani man was actually killed by members of the far right on the basis of the idea that Roma need to be killed to eliminate so-called gypsy crime.

In Italy, the minister of the interior, Matteo Salvini, recently announced his intention to create a Roma census, a policy that is very reminiscent of the 1933 policies inflicted upon the Jewish population in Italy at the time. This policy gained wide public support and in fact has led to an increase in hate crime against the Romani population in Italy.

Just last year, after the violent killing of three young Romani girls, graffiti throughout Rome praising the deaths of those three girls was actually documented. In fact, some pictures show graffiti saying “three less Roma”. This was just last year.

This month, in fact, in Bulgaria, neo-Nazis have marched threatening Romani villages, chanting anti-Romani slogans and encouraging anti-Romani violence.

In France, a few months ago, as a result of a medieval stereotype, Roma were accused of stealing children. There have been many violent attacks that have left many Romani families, including children, hospitalized. These things were the results of fake news being spread via social media.

Our colleagues in France are part of the only organization that has spoken out against this. Due to their efforts, the government has actually taken action.

There are many, many, many countries. These things took place in just this past month. We're not talking about years ago. We are talking about a few weeks ago that Romani people were actually killed, including in Bulgaria, simply because they were Roma.

I would like to read some of the quotes from the ruling parties in those countries with those marches. “Whoever runs over a gypsy child is acting correctly if he gives no thought to stopping and steps hard on the accelerator.” This is a quote from a political columnist and a founding member of Hungary's governing Fidesz party. “Gypsies to the gas chambers.” “Set them all on fire.” “Bury them alive.” “Stab them in the back.” These were quotes from ethnic Czechs during a demonstration against Roma in the Czech Republic.

Between 2012 and today, we have seen what we call anti-Romani marches. Most of the time these have been organized by the far right but they have also been widely supported by everyday citizens. People march carrying signs with swastikas and often dress up as Hitler and chant anti-Romani slogans.

How has the world reacted to those situations? Unfortunately, it hasn't, because, as I mentioned before, one of the most normalized forms of racism today is actually the violence committed against Roma, which is unfortunately based on the belief that Roma are fundamentally criminals.

How has the Canadian government reacted to this? Unfortunately, in 2012 under the previous government, a lot of Roma were coming to Canada to seek asylum and seek protection from the rise of the neo-Nazi movement. This was just in 2012, when the far right reached its peak. Actually, in a village in Hungary, six Roma were killed, including a six-year-old boy, as a result of these attacks by the far right.

A large number of Roma came to Canada to seek asylum. The response of the government at the time was unfortunately to repeat that rhetoric of criminality, accusing Roma of being bogus refugees undeserving of Canadian protection.

Our organization has asked that you work to address these issues with every single minister since Jason Kenney was minister. He was in fact responsible for the introduction of Bill C-31, under which specific measures were taken to restrict the entrance of Romani asylum seekers, whereby billboards were actually placed in the villages, such as in Hungary, where Roma were known to come from, discouraging Roma asylum seekers from applying to Canada. The policy measures that were taken have proven to be efficient. According to the statistics, Roma acceptance decreased by 90% between 1998 and 2012.

Our organization has actually worked with many families who have been unjustly deported. We are in fact still working with a family that is to face deportation in the next two weeks because Bill C-31 is still in place, and the countries that I have mentioned, where Roma are perceived to be animals and are threatened with being killed, are considered safe by the Canadian government. One of the provisions that we suggested be made to Bill C-31 was that the criteria of what constitutes a safe country be revised and that there be a board of experts deciding under what criteria those countries are safe.

A new government came into place, and Minister Hussen was given the mandate. That was dropped from the mandate of the minister, so those countries are still considered to be safe.

Of course, there is an increase in the acceptance of Roma, especially those from Hungary, in light of the well-documented evidence of persecution of Roma in those countries, yet there are still consequences to that bill, which we have seen from our organization's point of view. In the past three months, we have worked at least on three cases of deportation of Romani families who came here around 2012. There are still consequences to the policies enacted by the Canadian government.

Just to give you a bit of the background of our organization, when we started the organization, our intention was actually to use Canada as a model for Europe, despite Canada having its own human rights issues, in terms of how Europe could do better. Unfortunately, the Canadian government led us to do the opposite of that, because Roma coming from those countries were actually facing discrimination in their countries and were sent back to situations of discrimination, which actually doubled the discrimination of the home countries.

On that, just to give you a concrete example, according to the 1951 refugee convention, which the Canadian government has ratified, a country cannot send people back to situations where they will face persecution, whereas in the case of the Roma, that is exactly what happened. We've worked with many families, especially Romani children, who knew that they were to be refused because of the high refusal rate of refugees whose education was not recognized in countries where they already face segregation. They were sent back to their countries, faced double discrimination and actually had to drop out of school.

I'll end on that note, but I just want to take 30 seconds to make some concrete recommendations, if I may.

Essentially, what we're asking the Canadian government for is to eliminate Bill C-31 or to at least appoint a board of experts to determine what constitutes a safe country; to work with European governments to address the ongoing human rights situation in those countries; and, to officially adopt an act of Parliament. I have drafted a bill that is ready to be presented. It simply needs to be presented by members of Parliament so that the Romani genocide can be recognized. I think the committee's very mission is to prevent future atrocities from happening. That really begins with recognition.

Thank you.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

Thank you very much for your very informative testimony.

Now we will go to some questions.

We will start with Mr. Anderson.

You have seven minutes.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate this.

Thank you for being here today.

I'm wondering if you can tell me the size of your community, how many people—

1:15 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

In Canada?

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

No, Europe is what I'm interested in. I think it's at about 5,000 in Canada. Is that right?

1:15 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

No. Actually, one of the main issues with Roma is documentation, and the numbers and data. Part of the reason is that there is no way to identify one's Roma identity other than self-identification. According to the latest census in Canada, there are between 4,000 and 6,000 Roma, but in fact, according to a Romani civil society organization, there are between 80,000 and 100,000 Roma who live in Canada, if not more.

The reason that Roma are less likely to self-identify is that obviously most Roma who come to Canada are here to escape situations of discrimination and most often come here with European passports, such as I did. I have a European passport. There's no way to identify somebody who is Roma unless they self-identify. In Europe, the latest estimates are between 10 million and 15 million. That is in Europe only. In the Americas, there are at least two million.

June 11th, 2019 / 1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

If the main identification is self-identification, what definition would you use to define your Romani community then? Do you have a definition or is it too broad to do that? I know you're speaking specifically about a community, but what are the identifying characteristics of that community, to your mind?

1:15 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

From a human rights standpoint, we tend to avoid defining people, but I think what defines the Romani peoples is that there's a common history, a common language and a common cultural heritage. In terms of the history of Roma, it's actually a history of discrimination and persecution. That's part of the reason that Roma are actually a global diaspora. Roma came through Europe in the 12th century originally from northern India, and are now spread across the world. There are Roma populations in the Middle East, in Australia, and in Latin America as well.

In terms of definition, there are common traits. The common traits are in fact the common history and cultural heritage of Roma, but it's very difficult to restrict the group of people to a definition. There are many subgroups throughout the Roma.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

What countries have been most effective in dealing with the anti-Roma sentiment? Who's done a good job? Where would you point to?

1:15 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

Unfortunately, whenever there's a Roma population, there is discrimination. I think it's not a question of which country has been more effective. It's unfortunately where Roma have been the most invisible.

In Canada, in fact, the reason the Roma have been able to be emancipated is that the first Roma who came to Canada came as early as the 1800s. Roma have been here for at least 200 years. Their emancipation is due to their invisibility. When I mentioned earlier in my address that when we started the organization we wanted to use Canada as a model, what I meant was that Canada, from a lack of knowledge, didn't inflict any—quote, unquote—“inclusion policies”. That was a success, because in fact they were simply granted equal rights, equal access to education, equal and not special treatment. I don't like the word integration, but the emancipation of Roma became natural because they were granted equal rights.

In Europe, there are many issues with the way things are done in terms of addressing the human rights situation of Roma. One of them is the structural racism that exists within European organizations, and the fact that policies about Roma are made by non-Roma. Roma are excluded from policy processes that concern them, so they often are what I call “exclusionary inclusion policies” because they are targeting the wrong problems. We speak about, for example, integration without addressing the fact that Romani children are segregated in schools. When talking about education, it's first important to address the problem's root causes, one of which is often, as I mentioned, the entrenched mentality that Roma are inferior.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Can I ask you about that then? I think the last thing we want is for our children to be discriminated against. Is it a general principle across Europe that Romani children are segregated, or do only some countries do that? Where would you find that?

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

There are certain countries: Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Serbia and Greece. I would say that Hungary and the Czech Republic have cases that have been documented more and there's much more evidence. That's also the case in Romania. In fact, just to go back to what I was saying before, there's been a lot of money allocated to Roma inclusion. In Romania, in fact, part of the funds were actually used to build a separate school for Roma.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Do they put the schools in the area where people are settled, and then draw the line around them? Is that—

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

They put the school in a Roma settlement, but that was excluded. No teachers wanted to teach there, in fact. The money was actually used to build a segregated school, and there were no roads to access the school either. One of the issues is that a lot of teachers refuse to teach in Romani settlements because of racism and prejudice.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

There's an issue with lacking documentation and being able to—

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

—access the bureaucracy. Could you talk a little about that as well?

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

What are the causes of that, and are there any solutions to that?

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

Again, the root cause is often situations of racism. My grandfather had to change his last name in order to gain a Serbian passport, because our last name was Sajn, which was a very identifiable Romani name. We had to change it to Savic, which was a very commonly known Serbian name, in order to gain access to a Serbian passport.

Especially in eastern Europe—I was recently at the UN forum on minority issues which focused on statelessness. The European Roma Rights Centre just issued a report documenting the fact that there's a high proportion of Roma who are undocumented and stateless.

One of the many issues I didn't have time to address during my presentation is the fact that during conflict, Roma often face double discrimination. The situation in the former Yugoslavia is one that attests to that, where we have a high proportion of Roma who became stateless as a result of the war because they are not considered to be part of any of the countries that then separated. Essentially nobody really wanted them, so they were bounced back and forth from country to country. The fact is that many Roma were illiterate, so in terms of accessing the documentation, not being able to actually be identified during birth is one of the reasons there is a lack of—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Do I have time for one more short question?

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

You have eight seconds.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

On the stateless and undocumented, I'm just wondering if you can tell me what impact the massive migration into Europe has caused for your community in the last 10 years. Maybe somebody else wants to follow that up.

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Executive Director, Romanipe

Dafina Savic

Migration is a big one. The thing is, I think that when we're looking at the situation of Roma, we always have to address it from a historical perspective. Part of the discriminatory policies, for example, in Italy, or in most countries, is a result of the fact that Roma are believed to be nomads, whereas 90% of Roma are actually sedentary. For example, immigration policies are often built on the perception that Roma are nomads and that it's part of the Romani culture to travel, when most of the time they are fleeing situations of persecution.

In terms of migration, of course, because of the rise of the far right and the rise of strong anti-Roma sentiment, there has been movement. Even when we talk about the situation of conflict in Syria, the Domari population of Syria, which is a subgroup closely related to the history of Roma, was actually doubly discriminated against, because they were refused from refugee camps. This was reported by the UNHCR. Their plight was not addressed. In terms of migration, there's always that double effect.

Just to finish on that point, because I know my time is up, the Hungarian government used the Roma as an excuse to refuse refugees from Syria. They were saying, “We already have our Roma to deal with, so we're not accepting more refugees.” There's a double effect in terms of migration.