Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 11th, 2019

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here and for being an advocate for the Roma people.

I know that on International Roma Day the foreign affairs minister put out a statement on social media in solidarity and said that Canada stands against the hate and discrimination that are often faced by the Roma people. I know that your organization has been sponsored to speak at many international organizations about the plight of the Roma people. I would like you to elaborate on how Canada has assisted, and on what more Canada can do to assist on the global stage.

[Dafina Savic]

In terms of being sponsored, we haven't been sponsored. Our organization has been running with zero dollars for the past seven years. It's a completely volunteer organization. Part of the reason—and I know this has changed recently—is that we are not registered as a charity, so we couldn't actually access funds. Most of the work we were doing was actually political advocacy.

I know that this changed relatively recently. The only source of funding we've had was from benefit concerts, and that actually went to the Roma to pay for the legal fees of Roma refugees.

That being said, in terms of the words you mentioned, that statement came as a result of the work we're doing with Global Affairs and Minister Freeland's office. We requested that the statement be made in light of the commitment for the recognition of the Romani genocide. That's just to give you the background. We have asked the Canadian government to recognize officially the Romani genocide and declare August 2 as the official day of commemoration of the Romani genocide.

With that, we asked for a commitment to address the ongoing human rights violations of Roma across the world. As part of that commitment, we are working with Global Affairs to see what can be done. I can say that the situation in terms of human rights has been a much easier situation in terms of the government response to take steps. The recognition, however, has been very, very difficult in terms of getting the government to adopt an official act of Parliament to officially recognize the Romani genocide. As it stands right now, it remains a statement whereby the government commits or it recognizes the Romani genocide, but there's no act of Parliament officially recognizing it. That's what we're working on now.

I think that what the government can do more of is to speak out about these situations. We haven't seen statements from the government about all these situations. We do address that regularly with Global Affairs. Whenever there is a situation, we send an email. Also, we raise awareness, both with our own MPs in Montreal but also at the federal level, and at the international level as well. Those are two concrete things that can be done.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Besides this committee, I also sit on the citizenship and immigration committee. In recent years, there has been a large influx of migrants fleeing to better prosperity in Europe. Within the last 20 or 30 years, I would say, has the spike in discrimination and hate crimes towards the Roma people increased in Europe? Has this been a factor with other immigrants coming into the region and with eastern Europe having strict immigration policies and closing the doors on any new migrants? Has it increased the discrimination against the Roma people?

[Dafina Savic]

That's always a difficult question, because I think it's been more documented in the past 20 years. There have actually been more actions to try to document it, but definitely, according to the latest Harvard University report, there was actually an increase in hate crimes against Roma in Italy from 2017 to 2018. With the rise of the far right across Europe, there has been a strong anti-Roma sentiment that's been promoted, and a lot of these parties have actually gained power on the basis of that anti-Roma rhetoric. We've seen this in Hungary, for example, and we've seen this in the Czech Republic. There have actually been more instances of violence. We've seen anti-Roma marches in villages not only in Hungary but also in the Czech Republic and in Bulgaria recently. Even in France, there weren't marches but there were attacks carried out by citizens.

I think the danger, in terms of anti-Roma hate speech, is that it is, unfortunately, not limited to the far right. We see it at the centre as well. We have seen it in France just recently, and we see everywhere that there is a strong normalization of anti-Roma hate speech.

Yes, definitely, there's been documentation of the increase. CERD, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which just reviewed Hungary, actually in its last report expressed its deep concern over the rise of anti-Roma hatred and violence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Sweet for five minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Savic, in fact, since you're on that subject, the instance of hate against Roma in France has now eclipsed that in Hungary, hasn't it? It's become really bad. Is that correct?

[Dafina Savic]

It's hard to beat Hungary, but definitely, in the past few weeks, we've seen, as I said, that, yes, there's definitely been a rise in anti-Roma sentiment.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

You said for the past seven years. Is that how old your organization is, seven years old?

[Dafina Savic]

Yes. We started the background work in 2012 but we officially registered in 2013.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Okay. Have you had any resistance at the UN with regard to any of your efforts to have them address the statelessness of some of your community in Europe and to recognize the size of your community?

[Dafina Savic]

The resistance met at the UN was not with regard to the issue of statelessness. It was with regard to the recognition of the Romani genocide.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Okay.

[Dafina Savic]

Annually January 27 is International Holocaust Remembrance Day. Many Romani civil society organizations have actually asked for Roma to be invited as part of that ceremony. In the past 20 years, only two Roma have been invited. The resistance has been more in terms of the recognition of the Romani genocide rather than statelessness. In fact, I mentioned that the minority forum focused on statelessness last year, and many statements on statelessness have actually been made by civil society. In terms of the size, we've also done a lot of work with many organizations to get the UN to actually speak more about the situation of more Roma in the Americas, because one of the challenges in Canada and the Americas at large is that the human rights situation of Roma is very Eurocentric at the moment because of, for example, institutions such as the European Union. The plight of Roma in the Americas or even in the Middle East, for example, is often ignored because there are no international institutions monitoring it. We're working now with the UN to try to have more action taken on that.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

One similarity in the situation of Jews and anti-Semitism and the hatred towards Roma is that there are these diabolical stories concocted. In the Jewish case, it's the blood libel that's insidious and perpetuated by evil people. I see stories of baby theft that are constantly concocted around Roma.

Tell me about that and about how that's disrupted communities and caused even police officials to actually investigate.

[Dafina Savic]

I mentioned very briefly the history of the Romani genocide, but in fact, in 1936, the Nuremberg laws were actually modified to include Roma. In terms of racial purity—the rhetoric of the Nazis—they actually specifically said that Roma were inferior and prone to crime. As I mentioned, the idea of Roma criminality was used during the Second World War to justify the mass murder of Roma. Unfortunately, we still see it today.

We've mentioned social media. When we post situations of what are often segregation or forced sterilization, the response is often, “Yes, but some Romas steal.” I think it's very entrenched in people's minds that Roma are inherently criminals. We see that at large in policy. As I mentioned, with the policies of Matteo Salvini, for example, the intention is to eliminate gypsy crime. In Hungary, the newest extreme right group actually has a manifesto. In its manifesto, it has a section called “the gypsy question”. In the gypsy question, the intention is to eliminate gypsy crime. In Italy, they actually sent troops to Roma settlements to guard against the security threat of Roma.

We've seen that this rhetoric of Roma being criminals has actually been one of the main arguments used to justify the human rights violations of Roma today.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you.

We will now go to Ms. Hardcastle for five minutes.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

This is really interesting. Just in continuation of that, you talked a bit about what some of these groups are doing in talking about the elimination of gypsy crime. Can you give us some examples of the structural racism that you've talked about? I know that would be in Europe, but how is that a ripple effect and what is structural even here in western countries, including Canada?

[Dafina Savic]

Just to build on that notion in terms of your mentioning the police, often when there are situations like that, the police are called to intervene, but they're actually contributing to the violence. This was documented in Ukraine. There's video evidence of that. That rhetoric is often used for this.

As I said before, it's unfortunate, but the Canadian government itself used that rhetoric in saying that Roma are bogus refugees who are coming here to abuse the social welfare system. Their claims were deemed to be unfounded, whereas obviously the situation in Hungary and in most of the countries where Roma were coming from at the time was very documented. This was actually followed by the killings of six Roma in Hungary.

That rhetoric, as I mentioned, is not limited only to Europe. It has really spread across.... Even in Latin America, we see it as well, and in the Americas and the United States. It's a very predominant rhetoric that we often see justified in terms of equal access to opportunities. Educated Roma will not be able to access jobs because there is a structural racism and people don't want to hire Roma. There is a concrete example in Italy, for example, where local Roma developed a food truck and nobody wanted to eat there on the presumption that they were cooking rats or things like that. This mentality is very entrenched.

In terms of the structural racism, as I mentioned, there's a higher proportion of Roma across the world who are highly educated but are not able to access employment, often because of racism, so they have to hide their Romani identity. Of course, some Roma who are not as visibly Roma and who have lighter skin are able to do that, but also, with last names, it is difficult to identify if one is Roma or not. This has also been documented: Roma have sent in their CVs and, when they show up for interviews, they are not given the jobs because they're obviously Roma.

Also, as I mentioned, in terms of political participation, despite the strong population in most of those countries where Roma are actually the main minority, very few Roma are a part of political processes or elected officials. Also, in terms of Roma inclusion policies, they're often not done in consultation with Roma; they're often done by non-Roma. Some of the European Union's policies are, for example, “come and volunteer to teach Roma hygiene”, which obviously is itself problematic in addressing the human rights situation of Roma.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

How problematic is it when you think of the goal of your organization and the goal of achieving recognition not just of the genocide but also of human rights for the Roma?

You mentioned that your family changed its name. How common is that? Also, do you see that being a problem in the future or as something we're going to have to make better known—I'm speaking hypothetically now—if we think this has affected 200 people when, in fact, it's affected 200,000 in a community?

[Dafina Savic]

Again, there are always layers of complexity when talking about Roma. I think part of the reason is that centuries of persecution have left these things unaddressed. There have been things beyond the Romani genocide, throughout their very existence. During the Spanish Inquisition, the Roma had their tongues cut out if they spoke Romani.

That's why in many groups of Roma the language has actually been endangered and, quite frankly, quite lost. Many of the Roma who have been able to be emancipated and get access to jobs or higher education have been able to because they have, in a sense, given up on their Roma identity. That's why they would actually be able to access the space.

My grandfather is an example. He was a tall white man with blue eyes, so not visibly Romani, and that's why he was actually able to change his last name. That has been the situation of many Roma. In my family alone, there are many who, in order to access passports, had to do that.

In terms of recognition of our history, as I mentioned, for Roma the issue is that there needs to be recognition of our existence as a people. In Romania, Roma were displaced for 500 years and there are obviously socio-economic repercussions to that with regard to the situation of Roma.

I think there is a strong parallel that can be drawn between our history and that of African Americans. We see that because this history is actually reflective of the socio-economic situation of Roma. Roma have been very passive. Despite the fact that there has been violence, persecution, slavery and forced labour camps since even before the Second World War, Roma have actually not been violent. The response of Roma has never been one of violence; it has been a passive one. That's why there are Roma spread across the world, because there has been forced nomadism. Roma left their country to look for equality, but they have never been able to find that equality because wherever Roma have gone, they have faced persecution.

It's about recognition of history but also of the contribution that Roma have made since the 12th century in European countries as well as in America.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you.

Just for two minutes we have the chair of our parent committee, the foreign affairs committee, Mr. Levitt, for a very short question.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Ms. Savic, I have had the pleasure of speaking with you on previous occasions. I last ran into you coming out of a press conference, and I want to ask you about that, because it was genocide prevention month; I believe that was the occasion. It was a coming together of civil society groups from the Ukrainian, Armenian, Rwandan, obviously Romani, Jewish and other communities that have faced persecution over the years.

I'm wondering if you could briefly give us a bit of background on the support that exists in civil society and through those kinds of organizations, and how that is a real advantage for the Romani community here, which probably doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.

[Dafina Savic]

Yes, of course. I have also strongly collaborated with the Montreal Holocaust Museum, especially in terms of the recognition of the Romani genocide. You mentioned the history shared by the Jewish population and the Roma. CIJA has created a kind of coalition of groups that have been victims of genocide. The Yazidi of Iraq should also be added to that list.

The press conference was aimed at actually asking three concrete things from the Canadian government in light of genocide awareness and prevention, one of them being adopting a policy to address online hate; trying to welcome those people who are currently facing situations of mass atrocity and genocide, so that would be Burundi, for example; and officially adopting an act of Parliament to recognize the Romani genocide.

[Michael Levitt, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.