Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 18th, 2019

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Now we'll go to Ms. Hardcastle for five minutes.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

I have listened to all of your comments. You have mentioned private and public diplomacy, and where the future hot spots will be. China and India are the two most populous nations in the world. Where does what's happening there fit in with Canadian diplomacy, when you look at issues as a matter of a state's capacity to deliver on human rights, such as religious freedom, and with the persecution of Christians as something that people need training and education on or as a matter of will?

I don't know if that's too much for my five minutes, but aside from targeting sanctions at specific people, what can we be doing in terms of the public diplomacy? Do you see some opportunities there that we haven't maximized yet or that we could be doing a little better on?

Do you want to start, Ms. Michels? Go ahead.

[Mindy Michels]

As you noted, I think that's a really big question and also a question that has a lot of implications in terms of what the foreign policy needs of any particular country are. I think one thing I would say is that being able to engage with like-minded countries that are collectively looking at these questions and trying to answer with regard to what could effectively be done in any particular situation..... In both of those cases, it's obviously entrenched.

You raised China and India. I haven't said this yet—and I know it's been mentioned during this conversation—but I think that any conversation about China can't avoid looking at the question of what is happening with the Uighurs. As noted, there's not yet the same kind of evidence that this is happening to the Christians, but there is a lot of evidence that what is happening with the Uighurs has also come from a situation in which there was a lot of learning from the persecution of Falun Gong members before. I think, then, that without being able to address that kind of persecution and strongly address that kind of persecution, it's hard to know who comes next after that.

However, I think the diplomatic way to engage in both of those countries depends on various....

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Stangl, do you want to add anything to that?

[Anna Lee Stangl]

Yes. I would again agree with Ms. Michels that it's context-dependent.

However, I would bring up this idea again of adopting a prisoner of conscience. I think that's a really effective way to highlight not just the profile of an individual but also, in the context of that individual, the broader situation. I think bringing them up at every opportunity with the counterparts, whether that's the embassy or a visiting delegation, and just making sure that the person's name and case are constantly on the agenda is a simple but effective way of doing that.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Kuo.

[Lily Kuo]

In the case of China and the Uighurs and what's happening to other Muslim minorities in Xinjiang, we did see a shift in the response from the Chinese government after months of more international attention, international criticism and coverage. I think the turning point was at a UN panel. I think it was—I'll get it wrong—a session on the convention on discrimination, I believe. It was at this panel that somebody said they had received credible reports that up to a million Muslims had been detained in Xinjiang.

That really raised it to another level. Up to that point, the Chinese government had mostly responded with a blanket denial that this was happening. The response since has changed, and it's about changing the framing of the narrative.

I just raise that, as it's able to show that as much as statements are made any time by other countries about what's happening, those statements are criticized but they do make a difference. Again, it's not my.... I'm a journalist, not an activist or an advocate, so it's not really my role to comment on diplomacy.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Brobbel, quickly.

[Floyd Brobbel]

The area of diplomacy is something that Voices of Martyrs doesn't get involved with.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

[Floyd Brobbel]

However, we do work with local leaders in-country to inform them of their rights and freedoms and equip them in that way so that they're better able to deal with those issues as they arise on the ground.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much.

For the final round, we will start with Mr. Sweet. We'll go with four minutes per person.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I have one quick question.

From the testimony, we see that one of the complexities of Christian persecution is that it comes from all sides, from secularism to Communism to extremism to just being different, with political reasons being used, or using pawns for political gain, and in the case of Mexico, it's gangsters. It even happens when well-meaning Christians.... Even outreach is misunderstood in many cases, isn't it? I'll just ask maybe one person, and then I'm going to turn over my time to Mr. Anderson.

Ms. Stangl, isn't even outreach sometimes seen as a devious way to convert people?

[Anna Lee Stangl]

Yes, that's a major problem. I think that's just an intersection of Christian aid organizations and humanitarian organizations that often don't engage in proselytism being accused of proselytism because they have a Christian identity. Sometimes they're targeted. Sometimes the Christians on the ground are targeted.

There was a case mentioned—I can't remember who mentioned it earlier—of a pastor in India who was not proselytizing but was accused of false conversions. That comes up again and again, and I think it's something that really needs watching and is worth being aware of.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Ms. Stangl, you mentioned the social media issue a little earlier, and I think Ms. Hardcastle brought that up as well. I'd like to talk to you about that, because I'm wondering if there's a way that this can be used well. When people have a video of others or themselves beating somebody down, isn't that something we can use to name and shame—I don't know if you want call it that—or to raise the issue and to begin to profile it? Is there anybody who's doing that effectively? Should we be trying to do that?

I would ask Ms. Kuo to respond to that, too, as a journalist. Is there a way in which we can use these kinds of social media contacts, the videos and those kinds of things, to actually highlight the issue and to name and shame—if you want to call it that—the Indian government into doing something on these...? Can that be done effectively?

[Anna Lee Stangl]

Again, I think it's a complex issue. You have the example of India, where the perpetrators uploaded and exposed it and were not ashamed at all. In fact, they were very proud, and that possibly has galvanized others to participate as well.

We are encouraging people on the ground to be citizen-journalists when they can and to record events when they see them and try to report on them, but it always brings in the question of the victims as well, and their consent, and that can often be a tricky thing to get. I would say that it can be a very useful tool if the victims in the video are in agreement with its use.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Ms. Kuo, do you have a reaction to that as a journalist?

[Lily Kuo]

A lot of activists in China—or regular citizens who might be speaking out about something—also use western platforms. They use Twitter, mainly, but now we're seeing those accounts taken down and those people being detained for using Twitter inappropriately—or whatever the justification is. I don't know if there's something that western governments can do to highlight those cases when that happens.

The other thing would be that I think the Canadian embassy is pretty active on social media platforms in China, and they've done some things to highlight certain anniversaries and certain cases. I think that's a positive thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Mr. Tabbara for four minutes.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

My question is for Ms. Kuo. Have interfaith groups been effective in having a particular dialogue and organizing multi-faith groups to come together to speak about some of the persecution that Christians are facing and, as well, similar discrimination faced by other groups? Has that been effective in many of the places you have visited or the places you have researched?

[Lily Kuo]

I don't know much about that.

In the case of the Early Rain church, I know that they and some Christian groups have spoken out about the case of the Uighur Muslims. I think that's important. That community often doesn't have a voice of its own within China because of the amount of suppression they're under. When these Christian groups can speak up for them, that helps amplify their voices and it extends that, because they're also facing religious persecution. I've seen some of that.

As to how effective that is, I can't really say. Maybe it has raised more attention and more people are concerned about it.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Ms. Michels, have you heard about interfaith groups working together to combat discrimination as a collective unit?

[Mindy Michels]

I don't know about interfaith groups broadly. I know that one of the things we supported, for example, through the program we do, was a group of a Christian pastor and an imam working together to look at ways to reduce pre-election discrimination and violence in Nigeria. I don't know that it would be considered an interfaith group writ large. I don't know that it's a group per se.

I do think that one of the really key pieces is trying to have organizations where people are working together or across faith lines. Among the work we do, that's some of the most inspiring work, when we see situations where human rights defenders and advocates or lawyers, or just groups in general, are providing support outside of their own faith groups.