Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 18th, 2019

[Anna Lee Stangl]

Yes, I think it depends a lot on the country and the context. On the whole, I think we almost always see increased tolerance where you have that grassroots respect. Again, this is linked to rule of law and there being strong structures and also strong understandings, not just at the local grassroots level but at the local authority level, of what religious freedom is, what human rights are and what tolerance really means in terms of living together. I think it's something that needs to be worked on in almost all the countries we work in—definitely.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Kuo, you spoke about a number of different religious minorities being persecuted in China. Can you talk a bit about what the grassroots neighbourhood-level atmosphere is when it comes to minorities?

[Lily Kuo]

In Xinjiang, the minorities tend to be in certain areas, either in the southern part or in pockets in the north. For a long time, they were just among themselves. In that area of the country, though, Han Chinese is the dominant ethnic community, so they've moved in. Most Han Chinese are not religious. They're not Muslim, and most of them are not Christian.

In terms of any tensions, from what I've seen, there don't seem to be religious-based tensions, but there is an amount of mistrust and suspicion, and an amount of anger over policies whereby the Han Chinese feel privileged over the minorities. These can be policies about how many children they can have or policies about education and getting into universities. On the reverse side, in the minorities, there has been a lot of anger towards the Han Chinese moving in and taking jobs. Generally, they're dominant.

In terms of religious on-the-ground interaction between religious groups, I guess that because China has the largest number of people with no religious affiliation, that generally doesn't seem to be a large issue. People don't hide the fact that they're religious, but they definitely don't promote it. In conversations with people, it might come out that they do go to a house church. That's not always the case. That's why I mentioned in my testimony that for a long time these house churches were able to operate. The authorities just sort of looked the other way and the house churches didn't touch on political things.

I have had several interactions with people I've just met who would mention that they go to a church and ask if I would want to go to church with them, so it's not that they are really hiding it. It's also not the case that other people will persecute them for being religious.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Michels, we've also talked today about the role of the state and then governments. When we talk about the rule of law and we talk about minority rights, what do you think needs to happen in terms of protecting more minority rights? In areas where there are natural disasters and famine and there are power struggles going on, oftentimes it seems as if religion is being used. I know Canada does not use its blasphemy laws, and we were very glad to repeal them from our Criminal Code earlier this year, or last year.

What is the role of the state when it comes to really getting onto that ground and protecting the minority rights?

[Mindy Michels]

That's a broad question. I think there is the role of the international actors that have to be engaged there, but obviously the state also has an obligation to protect its citizens, and this unfortunately is an area where.... I will speak about all marginalized groups, because this doesn't stay with just Christians or just faith-based minority groups. I think all marginalized populations are at risk when these types of things happen. Without the state as a strong actor enforcing the rule of law and ensuring that impunity doesn't take place....

Again, this is not my area of major expertise. I deal much more often with specific cases of violence. I was listening to your question about the neighbours and I thought, “We get only those cases in which the neighbours are attacking; we never see the positives.” My work generally is not the positives but the negatives. I would say that in those cases the state has to be there, both locally and on the national level, to enforce human rights and the rule of law.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Anderson for five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I would like to start in the future and then work back to the present, so I'm going to ask you this. I think Ms. Michels mentioned that the last 13 years have seen a decline in religious freedom. Where will the hot spots be over the next two years?

I'll ask each of you, and if your answer is different from hers, then you can just add to that.

[Mindy Michels]

I don't know that I have an answer to that question because our work is really looking at the cases that come in. Obviously we're tracking the situations that are evolving, so certainly we're watching what is happening in India with the rise of Hindu nationalism. That is certainly an area that we are watching. Pakistan has been consistently an area from which we have received many, many cases, both of violence and also of the abuse of the rule of law.

I think any places where you're seeing the government really trying to restrict civil society in general, and as restrictions in civil society in general come in and the government tries to consolidate power or there is a rise of extremism—as I think I said in my testimony—whether the state is involved or not, we tend to see more cases coming in. I work on the direct emergency provision, but our research arm would also be watching those places as civil society becomes more restricted.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Does anyone else have a comment they'd like to make?

Mr. Brobbel, you look like you're jumping on the mat.

Go ahead, Ms. Kuo.

[Lily Kuo]

I'm a little bit biased, but I would say that China is a major hot spot and will be for a couple reasons. One is that even though the Christian population is probably 5% or less—I'd put it at about 67 million or 60 million, and that's a conservative estimate; other estimates are up to 200 million—if those estimates are right, there are more Christians in China than there are members of the Chinese Communist Party.

Another aspect that is interesting about the Christian movement in the last few years is that with pastors like Wang Yi of Early Rain, there is a growing sense of rights awareness, so there's a growing sense of the role that the church can have in public life and this idea of the church advocating for justice and social justice and being involved in society.

A lot of very prominent human rights lawyers in China now are Christians, so with that and with the numbers and that happening in the Christian movement and, at the same time, the controls by the government that we're seeing.... I was speaking with a human rights expert about this and she was saying how 10 years ago, the Chinese government didn't really care about what people believed internally, just as long as they lived normally and they didn't disrupt things, but there's a much more invasive approach that we're seeing under the current government. They want to change how people think, so with those two combined—

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can I interrupt you? They're going to take away my mike here pretty quickly, and I'd like you to comment on the social credit card, the ID card that is being required, and the impact that will have on the Christian community. I understand that it's tied to your activities, the choices you make, the comments you make online and those kinds of things. Can you address how that will impact the Christians in China?

[Lily Kuo]

It could impact the Christians in China if they are.... One of the people I interviewed was a student who had been sent away. He was a student at one of the seminaries. He had been sent out of Chengdu and he wasn't able to come back. What kept happening was that as soon as he would buy a train ticker or plane ticket to come back, he would get called up and asked where he was trying to go. If he tried to go to the airport or the train station, police would be waiting for him there.

In the social credit system, blacklists prevent people from travelling. The social credit system is a very complicated system. It seems to be operated through sort of disparate pilot projects across the country, so it's not really uniform, but the goal is to create a large supersystem where people are tracked and all their behaviour is tracked.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I think the intent is to have it in place by the end of 2020 across the nations.

I think my time is probably up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

You have 10 seconds.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much.

We'll go back to Ms. Khalid for five more minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to the witnesses.

I want to continue down my line of questions and talk about the role of the rule of law in holding to account the incidents of persecution and discrimination against peoples. Many of you have spoken about the Asia Bibi matter in Pakistan and the role that the Supreme Court of Pakistan played in finding that she was not guilty, ultimately, after her very long imprisonment. There have been other cases across the world.

I really am intrigued about what role a government can play in ensuring that minorities are protected. In Canada we're very blessed to have our Charter of Rights and Freedoms to ensure that our minority rights are protected. When it comes to Canada's role in the international community, what can we do to ensure that the rule of law and minority rights are upheld in sovereign states that experience religious discrimination of Christian communities?

Perhaps I can start with you, Ms. Kuo.

[Lily Kuo]

I would say that in the case of China, religious freedom has been enshrined in the constitution since 1982. There are protections for minorities based on their religious affiliation and ethnicity. I think Canada does have to tread a fine line in statements, because it could be portrayed as meddling with internal Chinese affairs, but I think highlighting Chinese law and the Chinese constitution in the protection of these rights would be one way to go.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Stangl.

[Anna Lee Stangl]

Again, I think Canada could look at potentially doing training or types of exchanges with governments from other countries, targeting not just the high-level government officials but also the low-level regional or local officials. In almost all of these countries, we see again and again that even where there are okay laws, at the local and regional levels the officials who are in charge of enforcing them often don't understand them. They're not educated or aware, but when they are, they sometimes improve. I think you could be sending people over there to train them, or you could be bringing them over here to learn about your systems and how you operate, giving them exposure to how the rule of law, with good laws, is supposed to function in practice.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Brobbel.

[Floyd Brobbel]

One thing we do in our work with Religious Liberty Partnership is that, when we put out statements on countries that deal with religious freedom issues, we highlight to the governments not only where we believe they need improvement. We also highlight the areas in which we think they are succeeding. I think if Canadian governments are able to reach into and meet with colleagues in other nations where there are issues of Christian persecution, or the topics that you're talking about here when it comes to blasphemy laws and the rule of law, it's important that they recognize the areas in which they are succeeding and the things they are doing well. I think that then opens the door to a discussion of challenging them on issues that may need improvement and bolstering in their nation.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Michels.

[Mindy Michels]

First of all, I think it's context-dependent, because different governments are going to react in different kinds of ways. Of course, that's the job of diplomacy, to know whether or not it should be public or private diplomacy or what types of interventions would happen in any particular situation.

I would say, first of all—as I mentioned in my recommendations—I think the Magnitsky act, for those cases with the most gross violations of human rights, is a useful tool for Canada and for other governments.

I would also say that in places where there is openness on the part of the foreign government to try to implement the rule of law in a stronger way, there are a variety of things other governments can do, including supporting the implementation of training for judges and prosecutors and helping to review discriminatory laws against Christians but also any type of discriminatory law. In general these would go across any type of faith-based discrimination or discrimination against any type of marginalized or minority group.

Then I would also say, in terms of what we talked about, with regard to state actors either being directly engaged in persecution or not allowing impunity, that there are often roles for diplomatic or other types of foreign intervention to be able to support states in taking a better role there.

Finally, as I also mentioned, with regard to funding for groups that are able to be engaged on the ground and to do things directly in communities when that's a safe thing to do, then the funding of those groups plays an important and powerful role.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much.