Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Sept. 29th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to turn the floor over to MP Hardcastle.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like some clarification. Maybe it's just a matter of the terms, the words, that different people are using in the report, but was this third term election of the president actually an election? I'm asking anybody in general here.

[Carina Tertsakian]

It was an election to some extent I suppose we could say, but by the time the elections took place, almost all the opposition leaders had fled, so there was practically no competition.

There are a number of parties that we could describe almost as satellite parties to the ruling party. Some of them nominally put up candidates, but the real opposition parties had already left for the most part. There was an election in the literal sense. There was a process whereby people went to the polling stations, but in the context I described, you would probably agree that that wasn't terribly meaningful.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Absolutely.

I just know there could be some who would say that there was an election, so it's good to know the actual realties of it.

You talked about something in a literal sense and I would like to go further on. One of my colleagues already mentioned the youth who are literally and figuratively being destroyed in this situation. I'd like to hear a little more.

You mentioned the large arbitrary arrests and the involvement of the youth league. Is that where some of those cordon-and-search operations are happening in different neighbourhoods? Could you explain a little more blow by blow what's happening with that kind of an action in using the youth?

[Carina Tertsakian]

The youth are victims and are manipulated by both sides.

On the government side, you have youth who are part of the official youth league of the ruling party. Those are the ones I talked about before. On the opposition side, there are many young men, as well as women, but particularly men, who joined the opposition. Initially, it was just part of that spontaneous public demonstration movement against a third term, and then some of those young people joined armed opposition groups as they began forming. There were already armed opposition groups, but new ones formed, and those people have also become increasingly radicalized, so you see it on both sides.

The cordon-and-search operations, and thank you for raising that, are one of the most worrying aspects, actually, but particularly toward the end of last year. The security forces mounted these operations in several neighbourhoods of the capital which were seen as opposition neighbourhoods, where there had been very intense protests against a third term.

The police would just seal off these neighbourhoods, go in, often accompanied by the youth from the ruling party. Often they would go house to house. They would say they were looking for weapons, but often what they would do, they would just go to these houses and say, “Show us the weapons.” They would arrest people with no arrest warrants or procedure of any kind.

There were numerous operations of this kind toward the end of last year, and one particularly deadly one on December 11. It followed an attack, presumably by the opposition, on four military installations. In response to that, the police and military came into two neighbourhoods of the capital and just went crazy. They arrested a huge number of people. They killed a large number of people. There were bodies buried in mass graves. It was one of the most gruesome episodes.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm still trying to get my head around some of your imagery.

The police are being used. They're being coerced. The young people are being used as protagonists as well as actually antagonizing. What is happening now? You mentioned the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Is this where the opposition are headquartering right now? What do you know about that? Could you provide some details with regard to that?

[Carina Tertsakian]

I wouldn't say they're headquartering in Congo. I wouldn't really say they're headquartering anywhere, but if they are, the most likely place is probably Rwanda. The opposition, I'm talking about armed opposition now, is fragmented, quite divided internally, and apparently disorganized as evidenced by the failed coup attempt last May.

Since then, a couple of new armed opposition groups have emerged, including one called FOREBU, which is led by the military officers who participated in the coup attempt. There are others and it's not clear to what extent these groups work together, or are in some kind of rivalry with each other. Many of their leaders and members are believed to be in Rwanda, but not all of them. Some of them float around between different countries. It's quite amorphous and quite diffuse. It's difficult to be more precise about it because even the structures and their location are not that clear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much for your very important work in this field. We really appreciate it. Thank you for your testimony today.

I want to follow up on something that you had mentioned with respect to the International Criminal Court beginning a preliminary examination of the possibility of human rights being violated in Burundi. I'm wondering if fact-finding is something of a challenge, or how that investigation is coming along.

[Carina Tertsakian]

I couldn't comment on the details because it's obviously confidential, and I genuinely don't know how much progress they've made. It's not an investigation as such, so they're not going in-depth, looking for witnesses, and so on, at this stage.

There's a lot of information, of course, that's already out there in the public domain, including information published by the UN, by groups like Human Rights Watch, and by many Burundian activists, but for sure, gathering information in Burundi right now is a big challenge. We've experienced that. I've talked about it a little, but it's not impossible, and there are of course many Burundians outside Burundi who have very valuable information, including many who have been victims of these crimes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You had made a recommendation that an international commission of inquiry could assist in resolving the issue in Burundi, and also finding further facts of the situation on the ground. I'm wondering, how would such a commission differ from the role that the International Criminal Court could play?

[Carina Tertsakian]

Well, it wouldn't be a prosecuting body or court as such, but certainly information it would gather could contribute to the work of the International Criminal Court. We see it very much as not something that would duplicate initiatives that have already been undertaken, whether it's the ICC or indeed the UN investigation that's already happened, but something that would build on that and be complementary to it.

For example, if the commission of inquiry uncovers new, serious information, maybe more in-depth, more detailed than what has been done so far, looking at the responsibility of specific individuals, we would hope that could assist the International Criminal Court.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

I'm going to take this opportunity to ask a question of you as well, if you don't mind.

We know that women and children face disproportionate hardship in war and conflict zones, and, in particular, we see that Resolution 2303, released just last month by the UN Security Council, strongly condemns the sexual violence. Can you speak to the threats in Burundi and tell us about some of the civil society responses to these threats?

In particular, I have an interest in the displacement camps and the conditions that are existing there, because that is often a hotbed of violence and external threats coming in. How are women and children faring, and what more can be done by civil society, and maybe what can Canada be doing, too?

[Carina Tertsakian]

That may be one area where Canada can also make an important contribution.

You talk about displacement camps. I would talk more about the refugee camps, because there aren't really...or maybe that's what you meant.

Human Rights Watch did some research in the refugee camps in Tanzania, which is a country that is hosting the largest number of Burundians. We found not only that there were women and girls there who had been raped in Burundi and been victims of other forms of abuse in Burundi, but separately from that, had been victims of some of those same abuses in Tanzania, in exile.

That is not in a political context anymore, but as you rightly said, displaced people, refugees, are very vulnerable, especially in huge refugee camps. There's inadequate support. There's inadequate response from the Tanzanians, even from the people who are running the camps. The women don't always know where to go to get help. In some instances, they did report these cases to the Tanzanians. Some of them said there were investigations and people arrested, but of course this did not occur in all cases.

Some of the cases of rape, for example, that were reported in the camps were committed by other refugees. It's Burundians against Burundians. But others were done by the local population, by Tanzanians. This happens, for example, when women go out of the camp to try to sell things or go to the markets. For sure, women and children have suffered enormously, and are still suffering. I think for those who were lucky enough to be able to escape from Burundi, there's definitely more support that could be brought to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll put some of my remarks into context. I'm subbing in on this committee and I'm very privileged to be able to do that. In the short period of time that I've turned my attention to the topic of study this committee has undertaken, I have sensed the frustration and disillusionment that individuals who have been working towards a solution on this issue might be feeling because of some of the barriers that have been put in place. I come to this having done a little reading on the subject.

My first question comes out of some of the information I've read. It's about the announcement that the Minister of Foreign Affairs made earlier this month in regard to providing the UN peacebuilding fund with $15 million over three years. That fund transferred funds to the African Union to support the deployment of 100 human rights experts and 100 military experts to Burundi.

It's my understanding that the committee has heard testimony from officials in Global Affairs that Burundi has put up significant administrative barriers to the deployment of these experts. What recourse do we have as a country if we've set money aside to provide assistance in this area? What recourse does a country have when the country where the atrocities are taking place has put up barriers to experts coming in?

[Carina Tertsakian]

It's an ongoing problem, the deployment of these African Union observers. Some of them have been deployed since last year. I don't remember the exact number, but it's less than half the 100 you mentioned. There are some human rights observers and some military observers there, who are monitoring the situation. They haven't published any reports, but they apparently do private reports that they send back to the African Union in Addis. The remaining ones still have not been deployed.

The other very disturbing thing is that the memorandum of understanding that was supposed to be the framework for these observers has still not been signed, more than a year after the idea was agreed to and even after the first group of observers was deployed. The observers have been working, realizing that if they waited for that MOU, they would wait forever. It's obviously a very frustrating situation.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I heard you say that what you are calling upon the UN to do is to find a way to hold the perpetrators to account, and that one of the ways to do that is by forming a commission of inquiry. This is perhaps a follow-up to my colleague's question. You also stated that the inquiry would be established with a view to delivering justice. I'm wondering if you could just explain how that would unfold.

[Carina Tertsakian]

Of course it wouldn't deliver justice itself, because it would be simply a commission of inquiry. It wouldn't have prosecutorial powers, and it wouldn't be a court. I don't want to pretend that it's the magic formula that is going to solve all Burundian problems, absolutely not. But to me, impunity lies at the heart of this crisis, and you see it in the way the perpetrators behave. From the low level, the ones who actually do the killing and torturing, right up to the top, there is this feeling that they know they're going to get away with it, and at some point, that has to stop.

The commission of inquiry would do two things. In a way, it's perhaps a bridge between the monitoring and reporting, which there has already been quite lot of, and ultimately some form of justice. The way I see it is that the commission of inquiry, if it's set up, would go deeper and further than, for example, the investigation team that has just submitted its report, and it would be able to gather evidence that could form the basis of, or contribute to, prosecutions.

Then the question is prosecutions by whom? The International Criminal Court is one option. There could conceivably be courts in other countries under the principle of universal jurisdiction, maybe.

At the moment, the Burundian justice system unfortunately is totally lacking in independence and has proved itself unable to deliver credible justice, but maybe that can change in the future.

I don't know if I've answered your question properly, but that's how I see it and what I see as its usefulness.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Certainly. Thank you.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Ms. Tertsakian, I want to ask you one follow-up question.

There are two paragraphs that I wouldn't even refer to except it's in a public document already. It seems to me there's a treasure trove of evidence that has been discovered, first allegations, and then there is some initial satellite imagery. The United Nations investigation team has this in a document, and I'm wondering if you're aware, from any other cases in the past, whether they have the resources to continue to monitor this now that they have initial evidence by satellite imagery that these mass graves are there so that they can safeguard this forensic evidence of the perpetrators.

[Carina Tertsakian]

That's a question maybe better addressed to the UN. Unfortunately, that investigation team has now ended its mandate. It has finished its work. There is, though, a pre-existing presence in Burundi of the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, so there is a UN human rights presence. It has been there for quite some time, as you know, and it is still doing monitoring observation.

I don't know exactly what kind of technical or other capacity they have, but certainly the destruction of evidence, the loss of evidence, would be a big concern. That is yet another reason, I believe, why a commission of inquiry would be needed and needed quickly, before that evidence disappears.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Tertsakian, I want to thank you and all of your colleagues at Human Rights Watch. You're a frequent and valued resource for us on this committee, and really, the work that you're doing on the ground in Burundi and Rwanda, in your case, but really around the globe, is greatly, greatly appreciated and recognized here in this committee of the Canadian Parliament.

Thank you very much for taking the time to join us from London. We greatly appreciate your testimony.

[Carina Tertsakian]

Thank you so much for the opportunity and for your support.