Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 2nd, 2017

[Jean-Nicolas Beuze]

Thank you very much, Mr. Tabbara.

This is exactly what we are trying to do with the third solution we are proposing, which is transforming the Dadaab camp into a sustainable development where we will integrate locally the refugees who decide not to return to Somalia for all the reasons you have mentioned, and because they have the choice not to return. Unfortunately, for those who can't be resettled, the only current solution is to have them where they are.

As was mentioned in the first testimony, there is very little prospect of people having opportunities to earn a livelihood after secondary school, or even without completing school, because there is very little investment being made currently in the region where the Dadaab camp is located. It is way in the middle, between Nairobi airport and the main seaport of Somalia in the southern part of the coast. Therefore, as in northern Uganda, which has been doing it for the South Sudanese, there is a possibility to develop the region. This is why the World Bank has given $100 million in loans to Kenya to try to develop the economy around Dadaab, which will eventually help—arguing exactly what you are arguing—the local integration of the refugees.

We strongly believe that Canada can play a role in supporting these efforts.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

My question would be to Mr. Mohamed and Mr. Haiye. I want to touch upon the vulnerability of some groups, such as women and children, in the camps. If they're forced to flee back to Somalia, what are some of the vulnerabilities or challenges they might face in Somalia?

[Ahmed Mohamed]

Thank you so much.

The vulnerabilities they might face in Somalia include being victims of the insecurity there. One of the possible places people can go back to Mogadishu, but we know that every day there are car bombings, and the other day we saw the civilian victims in the media. We have seen these types of images from there.

People can be victims of Al Shabaab or other gangs. There is still no functional government in the regions they are going back to, and there's no strong government that can protect them. Even the money given to these people by the UNHCR can be taken away from them, and there's no one who can protect them, because there's not enough security.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Just to clarify for the committee, the money they're given to return to Somalia is given by the UNHCR, and the vulnerability you're talking about is that they may be robbed or these funds may be taken from them as they're in transition back to Somalia. Is that correct?

[Ahmed Mohamed]

Yes, that's one case. The other case is of people who are going back to Somalia. I can't prove it, but I have had cases in which people who went back to Somalia lost some members of their family to al Shabaab, who accused them of being some kind of spies for the Kenyan government or free people who were outside the camps and who changed their culture and that sort of thing. When they came back to the border, they could not get their refugee registration back—they could not be registered again—and had to live in the camps and depend on other families, because they couldn't get the rights that other refugees could get from the UNHCR since they didn't have full registration. There are some people who went back to Somalia. Once they see the situation there, they come back to the camps and can't be registered again.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Also, Mr. Beuze, if you would, please submit those three recommendations that you have to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

We're now going to move to MP Hardcastle.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have several questions, so I'm going to get right to it, first with Mr. Haiye from Dalhousie University. In your presentation, sir, you were speaking about the way Kenya is perhaps benefiting from the camps. You said that if they wanted to close the camps, they would have done so by now.

I'd like to give you an opportunity to expand on that thought, because you were cut off. What makes you believe that this is a beneficial arrangement? Help us understand what your thoughts are, with your first-hand experience.

[Abdirahman Haiye]

The Kenyan government is benefiting from the camp in many ways. One of them is that most of the people working for the United Nations and the other implementing agencies are Kenyan nationals. In that case, they are employed and are paying taxes to their government. In that way the Kenyan government is benefiting a lot. As I said, a Kenyan person who works for the UN in the camp is earning seven times more than a Kenyan who is working for their own government. In that way the Kenyan government is benefiting from the camp.

In another way, most of the funding.... As Mr. Beuze has just said, the World Bank has given $100 million U.S. to the Kenyan government to develop the surrounding area. The funny thing is that no systems are put in place to ensure whether these funds are being used for the right purposes or not.

One other thing I want to add is that I don't think the Kenyan government is closing the camp for security reasons. I remember once when we were told that al Shabaab was in control of a town that was 10 kilometres from the border base of the Kenyan military. All that time, nothing was happening. I don't understand the reason the Kenyan government all of a sudden said there were al Shabaab hiding in the camp. No, there are no al Shabaab hiding in the camp. Al Shabaab are screened in the same way the Kenyan government and the refugee camps do of refugees. They don't even think the refugees are Muslims any more, or something like that.

I don't think, then, that there are security reasons, and as I said, those are some of the many reasons that the Kenyan government is getting a lot more than the refugees are getting from relief and aid.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Mohamed, do you want to expand on that as well?

Please go ahead.

[Ahmed Mohamed]

Thank you so much.

I just want to expand on that too. There is another way in which the Government of Kenya can benefit from the refugees who are staying in those camps. Some of the refugees, especially those who came a long time ago, have established businesses in the camps. I don't know whether the UN aid services are aware of that or whether that is allowed. But the Kenyan revenue authorities go to the refugee business centres at the end of the year and collect tax revenues from them. They charge for the land. They charge for the business.

I know some people who don't even have enough money to pay for it, but they're still charged, otherwise their shops will be closed. That's one of the ways. It's a way of getting revenue as well.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Haiye, maybe you can go first and then Mr. Mohamed. You mentioned a bit about al Shabaab. What is your opinion about them? Are they successful in recruiting the Somalis living in the Dadaab camp in particular?

[Abdirahman Haiye]

I won't be able to talk a lot about that. But to my knowledge and to the knowledge of the people in the camp, no refugee has ever been recruited. It has never been mentioned. If anything, the al Shabaab terror attacks that happened both in the camp and in other parts of Kenya have been carried out by Kenyans, mostly from the coast of Kenya where there are a couple of Muslim groups. All these terror attacks have been carried out by Kenyans, because after the investigations have been done, they are saying that they are Kenyans, and then nothing is done after that.

The blame is always that there are al Shabaab hiding in the camp. It's just by word of mouth. But when numbers come out, it is Kenyans mostly. There has never been, to my knowledge, mention of a refugee from Dadaab going back to al Shabaab, because that's why we came from there. Nobody would ever want to go back to the same problem. Thank you.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Go ahead, Mr. Mohamed. You wanted to add to that.

[Ahmed Mohamed]

Sure. One reason I will say that most people in the camps are not recruits of al Shabaab is, first, that they are people who have at least enough knowledge about the world and are well informed about the issues with al Shabaab and those kinds of things. Another reason is that if someone is employed, there's little incentive or money to join, although it's not enough. The UN is there and other non-governmental organizations have tried to provide students who finish high school with some kind of employment that gives them something around $80 a month. That's an incentive for them to sustain their lives.

We know one of the main reasons that people join al Shabaab is unemployment or lack of information about al Shabaab is doing. Because of these two main reasons, they may not be.... Although most of the young people are accused by the Kenyan government of joining al Shabaab, they have never produced a case of a refugee carrying out an attack against the Kenyan government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

We're going to try to get two short questions in. We're going to start with MP Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony today.

Mr. Beuze, when do you anticipate the complete closure of the camp?

[Jean-Nicolas Beuze]

We don't anticipate the complete closure of the camp. We are working on turning the camp into a sustainable settlement where livelihoods, opportunities, will be provided to the refugees, but also to the local communities around the camp. This is very much what we are working on with the Government of Kenya and with the support of development and humanitarian partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

We're going to adjourn.

[Technical difficulty--Editor]

I want to thank the three witnesses, especially our two student witnesses today. You provided an invaluable perspective first-hand from your knowledge and your experiences. We all appreciate your bringing that knowledge to us on this committee here today.

And to Mr. Beuze, thank you for testifying before us again.

The committee is adjourned.