Evidence of meeting #72 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was america.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Duane McMullen  Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Jeffrey Davidson  Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Tarik Khan  Director General, Central America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm going to call this meeting to order.

We are here to begin our study on the human rights situation regarding natural resource extraction within Latin America. This is a topic that we've addressed on a number of occasions in isolation, but it's a topic brought to us by our colleague Cheryl Hardcastle that we're going to be looking at.

Today we're going to be hearing from individuals from the Department of Foreign Affairs. We have with us Duane McMullen, director general, trade commissioner service, operations, who will lead off, and Jeffrey Davidson, extractive sector corporate social responsibility counsellor. If we can, we'll do 10 minutes for each of you gentlemen.

I know there are other members, and I'll introduce them.

Martin Benjamin is the director general, North American strategy bureau.

Sylvia Cesaratto is the director, South America, bilateral relations division, and Tarik Khan is the director general, Central America and Caribbean bureau.

Mr. McMullen, if we can, we'll have you lead off for 10 minutes, and then we'll hear from Mr. Davidson. Then we'll open it up to questions from the members of the subcommittee. Please go ahead.

1:10 p.m.

Duane McMullen Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Responsible natural resource management is essential to generating sustainable economic benefits. Many countries in Latin America are actively promoting investment in the natural resources sector as a means to generate important domestic revenues and create significant direct and indirect employment opportunities. Latin America has tremendous potential, but challenges remain, including in the areas of corruption, human rights, and environmental management.

Canada has a long history of engagement with the countries of Latin America. Our relationship with the region is dynamic and multi-faceted and spans the expanse of political engagement, robust commercial relations, significant development assistance, and important security programming.

We will continue to work in partnership with the region to advance common interests such as defending human rights, promoting democratic principles, fostering strong and inclusive economic growth, and improving safety and security for all.

Several of Canada's institutions are playing a role in this process, including government, civil society, and the private sector.

Canada's private sector is playing a big part—even if sometimes it does not recognize this—Canadian mining and oil and gas companies, in particular. By its significant presence, which I will describe in a moment, the Canadian private sector has taken on responsibilities that go far beyond simply “doing business” narrowly defined. The Government of Canada wants to see the Canadian private sector make a positive contribution to the development of the countries where they are invested. We have a number of tools to guide this. We make active use of these tools.

It is a journey, not a destination. We can be proud of what Canada is doing, even as we recognize that much more could be done. The subcommittee chair has invited Global Affairs Canada to speak about Canada's extractive sector specifically, in particular its impact on human rights in Latin America.

First, Canada's extractive sector has over $90 billion invested in Latin America, approximately 340 companies with 930 projects in almost every country in Latin America.

Spending by Canadian extractive firms in Latin America on local salaries, purchases from local businesses, local taxes, and royalties is vastly in excess of Canada's total worldwide development assistance spending. Some firms are by far the largest taxpayer in the country where they operate, and they provide large numbers of some of the best paid jobs in that country. There are individual Canadian firms whose total local spending rivals Canada's total development assistance spending. It becomes difficult to count employees and subcontractors, but there are probably in the hundreds of thousands.

That is to say that, if a Canadian mining company operating in Latin America thinks that all it is doing is moving rock, it is mistaken. Given the weak local governance capacity in many countries, Canadian companies are often expected to contribute to the delivery of basic services such as roads, water, electricity, health care, and education. This of course raises their profile and the expectations put upon them as they are pulled into the web of local governance relationships. But companies cannot replace local governments, which need to be responsible for the delivery of public services, as well as other areas of governance, including the administration of justice, local democracy, and public security.

Our development assistance programs in many of these countries are helping to build local and national capacities to manage resource extraction responsibly and in full accordance with human rights norms. This is where our ambassadors, as well as our political, trade, and development staff at our embassies, work together to make a difference. You will not meet a more dedicated group of people than Canada's diplomats working in our missions in Latin America and the locally engaged staff who work shoulder to shoulder beside them. It is our task here in Ottawa to provide them with the support they need so that Canada plays its part to support the development of Latin America.

While our diplomats work with local governments, civil society, and the private sector, the committee is asking specifically about Canadian extractive firms. We carry out our policy toward Canadian extractive enterprises as follows: First, we encourage best practice. How companies should operate to provide peace, order, and good government around their projects is intensely studied and increasingly well understood by both us and the business community. There are numerous useful and helpful sets of standards and guidelines about how to do this in a wide range of areas.

Firms that adopt such practices do provide good governance. Their projects are also more successful.

We provide training to our diplomats on how to recognize good projects, healthy governance, and early signs of trouble. We expect our diplomats to speak up when they see something they think is not right.

While our individual missions in Latin America are small, they can call on support from Ottawa when needed. We have experts to provide advice not least of whom is our extractive sector counsellor for corporate social responsibility, Jeffrey Davidson. Canada is the only country in the world to have such an office.

Canada has a good reputation across Latin America. With this reputation comes convening power. We expect our diplomats to use their convening power to help bring polarized factions together. This helps build muscle memory in the practice of politics: arguing, disagreeing, understanding, and compromising. We provide and have provided financial and technical support for hundreds of mini-initiatives that bring such parties together to practise and build these essential skills.

This approach also explains our second objective. We try to catch problems early, while they are small and before they become big problems. In our experience, we can catch the small problems. Unattended, the small problems can become big problems and much harder to remedy.

When there is a big problem, we have the capacity to work with all involved parties to reach remedy. Our primary mechanism is the national contact point, a Canadian obligation as a member of the OECD. The national contact point, NCP, supports the OECD Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises and deals with issues that may arise. These guidelines are the result of extensive multilateral discussion and consensus and there is considerable peer support for their proper implementation.

Canada's NCP brings together experts from seven government departments to handle tough cases. This approach gives us access to a broad range of resources, expertise, and experience, whether it is on issues of environment, labour, human rights, tax, or indigenous rights.

While our processes are voluntary, Canada is unique in the world in having a sanction for firms that do not act in good faith to work with our processes to understand a situation and reach remedy. A sanctioned firm is named publicly and loses access to Canadian diplomatic support. We make aggressive use of our sanction to lever and encourage good faith efforts by firms to work with impacted parties to remedy problems.

Though best results are achieved on the ground, one project, community, and company at a time, we also recognize that the best solution is that these countries themselves develop effective governance capacity. Helping governments in the region build this capacity for the sustainable management of natural resources is a priority for us and in line with Canada's new feminist foreign policy agenda.

In closing, I hope this has been helpful to the subcommittee in understanding Canada's approach to these issues. Along with my colleagues, I would be happy to respond to questions.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Thank you very much, Mr. McMullen.

We will now move to Mr. Davidson. You have 10 minutes, sir.

September 26th, 2017 / 1:15 p.m.

Jeffrey Davidson Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, honourable chairperson and members of the subcommittee, for inviting me here today to share my thoughts and experience. I have been Canada's extractive sector corporate social responsibility counsellor since May 2015. A counsellor is a Governor in Council appointee, has a fixed-term contract, and reports directly to the Minister of International Trade. I'm positioned to provide unvarnished advice and make suggestions to the minister. The counsellor speaks his mind, and my public statements reflect my own assessment of situations and issues. I bring to the role a mixed experience spanning 35 years in academia, the private sector, multilateral institutions, and now the federal government of Canada.

The work of the counsellor is carried out through the agency of the office of the extractive sector corporate social responsibility counsellor, which is now based in Ottawa and staffed by the counsellor and two junior technical staff. The office functions with limited administrative and budgetary support.

Today, the office takes a proactive and preventative approach to promoting good practice and minimizing the risk of conflict around extractive projects. What does this mean in terms of the way we actually work? We speak at public gatherings but also meet with companies and other stakeholders individually to explain Canada's CSR policy and expectations. We contact companies directly when we hear of a situation at a project site that concerns us. We serve as a resource on CSR good practice, not just for companies but also for diplomats and trade commissioners on post, as well as for civil society, organizations, and academia. We are often contacted by companies, by diplomats, and even by country-based NGOs when they face difficult situations and seek our advice.

We have expanded the boundaries of outreach to those places where Canadian companies are operating outside of Canada. I have now visited six countries in Latin America and two in Africa with the intent of gaining a deeper and more nuanced understanding of country-specific contexts, of the issues and challenges surrounding resource development, and of the concerns and aspirations of local citizens and governments.

During the past year, I visited Honduras, Guatemala, Panama, and Argentina. In order to understand all perspectives, we meet with host country government officials, academia, and civil society organizations in country, project-affected community representatives, and Canadian companies.

Country trips also include project site visits. Last year, accompanied by Canadian diplomatic staff, we visited eight Canadian operations to see and hear with our own eyes and ears how different Canadian companies address social and environmental issues and impacts, how they build relationships with local communities and government authorities, and how local stakeholders and impacted peoples perceive and respond to their presence.

On our website is a list of stakeholders with whom we have met. The visits also serve as a limited but useful exercise in country and project-specific fact-finding. On our website, you can also find the Honduras country trip overview. This report provides insights into the complicated nature of the relationships between a host country government, foreign-owned companies, civil society groups, and local communities. It also highlights the difficulties that the various actors have in finding common ground to resolve whatever issues divide them.

Country visits have allowed us to directly advise Canadian companies on how they should and could improve their social and environmental performance at their project sites. There is a commonality of critical issues and concerns that cut across the region, including, for example, consultation and consent, water use and quality, environmental contamination and health impacts, land acquisition and resettlement, the integrity of traditional livelihoods and protection of sacred sites, competition over access to natural resources, the use of public or private security forces, jobs and decent work for local people, project closure and potential abandonment by companies, and benefit sharing with project-affected communities.

These concerns are not specific to Canadian oil, gas, and mining companies but are characteristic of the extractive industry in general. When these concerns are not responsibly addressed by host country governments, by extractive companies whether foreign or domestic, and by civil society organizations, they can degenerate into situations that open the door to potential human rights abuses.

I'd like to share a few examples of how the office has attempted to promote new conversations around difficult issues that have clear human rights implications. In Colombia in June we coordinated and moderated a multi-stakeholder dialogue on the roles and responsibilities of different actors, including government, civil society, communities, and the private sector in building peace in a post-conflict state with special attention to the role of the extractive sector.

In Honduras, with the Canadian ambassador in tow, we spent two days in the field meeting with community representatives, national NGOs, the local human rights commissioner, and project site managers to support local efforts to find solutions that would work for all parties. In Argentina, where mining is still in its infancy but has faced public scrutiny and skepticism, we participated in a special meeting of parliamentarians to help them better understand the risks and opportunities presented by extractive activities and what policy initiatives might work for Argentina as a federal state like Canada.

Should the office come across a Canadian company that is not acting in good faith or is behaving in a way that I would regard as irresponsible or unacceptable, then I, as the counsellor, am ready to recommend the denial or withdrawal of Canadian economic diplomacy. This approach is different for those companies that, acting out of ignorance, negligence, or misunderstanding, create problems for themselves and for others but are willing and committed to rectifying situations and rebuilding positive relationships.

Of all of the OECD countries that serve as home for extractive companies with international interests, Canada has taken, in my opinion, the most progressive and aggressive approach to promoting and attempting to assure responsible conduct and respect for human rights by its own companies.

There are those, at home and abroad, who question whether Canada is doing enough, whether we should be doing more given the scope and scale of Canadian oil, gas, and mining activity abroad. What that “more” should be or look like has been the focus of ongoing private as well as public discussions within government and within the broader civil society community.

I leave you with that thought.

Thank you.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Thank you very much, Mr. Davidson.

We will move right into the first round of questions, and we are going to begin with MP Sweet.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you to the witnesses for their service to Canada.

The numbers are staggering for the problems in the extractive sector in Latin America. I have a couple of numbers here, but one I thought was extraordinarily staggering was that the ombudsman's office in Peru got 177 social conflicts in one month, July 2017, and 73% of those were derived from the extractive sector, so there is cause for concern.

Of course, there are a lot of players in the extractive sector, not just Canada, but Canada makes up 50% to 70%, so it is a large player.

Mr. McMullen, you said we expect diplomats to speak up when they see something they think is not right. Do they record those interactions when they think something isn't right? Is there a record of those, of how many interactions they have had and commenting on the way Canadian companies operate?

1:25 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

We don't keep specific tracking records, but we do get referrals from our diplomats abroad. Depending on the situation they are reporting on, we will deploy one of our experts, such as Mr. Davidson, to follow up.

Most of the issues are complex situations that reflect the need to develop social capital in those areas and the need to develop grievance mechanisms and ways people can make their voices heard and have their concerns resolved.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

That's good, Mr. McMullen. Thanks. I'm limited on time.

You mentioned that a sanctioned firm “is named publicly and loses access to Canadian diplomatic support”, trade advocacy and economic support. Could you tell me how many Canadian companies have been sanctioned to date?

1:30 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

We have publicly sanctioned one company to date, but we have threatened sanction to many companies to help encourage their good faith efforts to resolve issues.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Davidson, Hudbay Minerals, Tahoe Resources, and Chevron are presently awaiting their cases to be heard in Canadian courts. Did your office prior to you, or you yourself, have any interaction with these before a suit was brought against them?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

From what I can tell, there were no interactions with companies or situations in Guatemala involving the previous counsellor.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

My understanding is that you have intervened or at least written reports on six cases to date, and five are closed. Is that right, or are there more now in the counsellor's office?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

There were six cases, which were reviewed by the previous counsellor and closed prior to her departure from the seat. We have not received any formal requests for review.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

None to date?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

None to date.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thank you for that.

The present government made a commitment that they would “set up an independent ombudsman office to advise Canadian companies, consider complaints made against them, and investigate those complaints where it is deemed warranted.” This was a commitment made in 2015.

Would there be any difference in that scenario, compared to the capability that you have right now?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

Probably yes. It would mean more dedicated resources, a better implementing architecture for carrying out the mandate that currently exists, and a stronger architecture that provides the ombudsperson or the counsellor with more resources to work with.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Are you suggesting extraterritorial legislation?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

I am not a lawyer, and I am not suggesting that.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Okay. Could you tell me what you are suggesting? What kinds of resources would you need to be more effective?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

Speaking my own mind and my own opinion, I believe a hybrid approach is required that allows for preventative authority, as well as regulatory authority and judicial authority.

The court system has now been open to listen to cases. We've been experimenting with how we can improve the implementation effectiveness of a preventative approach through the office of the counsellor. The question is whether something more is still required, and whether, if we had greater resources as a preventative mechanism, we could do even more than we have done.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Let me speculate. You mentioned a couple of cases where you are in the field educating right now, but you would even be looking, in some cases, at the plans a Canadian company would have going into a territory, to be able to see first-hand, before they start the project, to make sure you could prevent any kind of negative eventuality from happening.

Would that be the kind of thing you're talking about?

1:30 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

That would be an extension of the mandate, which could bear some positive fruits, if companies were willing to share more. In fact, we've argued and suggested that there be more social and environmental disclosure up front, whether through the agency of the Toronto Stock Exchange or other mechanisms, so that risks and opportunities are identified very early on and open the door to our involvement with a broader community of players, including the juniors.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to MP Khalid, please.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to everybody who came in to testify today.

I'd like to start with you, Mr. McMullen. You mentioned briefly in your statement today Canada's commitment to ensuring rights for women in industries like this. How can Canada promote women's rights and gender equality through its trade and investment in extractive industries in the Americas?