Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 12th, 2016

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I'll make my question very short.

Thank you for being here.

As you know, the Syrian conflict has now been going on for five years. Many individuals have been displaced—millions, more than half the population. In the case of the Syrian Christians there, what's their situation like? Can you elaborate on the situation of the Syrian Christians who are in Damascus, and that of those outside of Damascus, where it's much more dangerous?

[Julia Bicknell]

That's not surprising; it's a civil war.

I would say hundreds of thousands, if not a million.... I don't know. I don't want to put a figure on it at all, but many, many Christians have fled Syria over the last five years, as have many others of the civilian population. However, many of them actually, consciously, want to stay.

They're actually choosing. I know of people personally who have the opportunity to go to America. They have family in the United States and they're choosing not to go. The reason they're choosing not to go is that they don't want to leave the heartland of their faith and their home. It's their home. Their family, their tradition, their culture, and their language are all rooted in that country.

I know personally of people who, despite bombs falling on top of their heads and despite their children not being able to go to school, are staying there because they want to remain. They don't want to leave. They also know that leaving is not necessarily the answer to everything. When a refugee arrives in a country such as the U.K. or Canada or America, it's just the beginning of another set of complex questions. Many of them say that more than anything, they just want to go home or they want to stay in their homes.

I would think it depends on where they're from in the country. As you will know, because your family roots are in the Middle East as well, Marwan, different parts of the country are much more severely affected at different times than others, and at the moment, it's everybody in Aleppo. There are many Christians who've chosen to stay in Aleppo. Now they are very anxious because the war has literally come to Aleppo. Damascus, controlled by al-Assad, by the government, is not in such a difficult situation. I think it does depend on which part they're from as to how their mindset is situated right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

Next would be MP Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to posit a different notion than what was discussed earlier in regard to the inalienable right to religious freedom.

When you came into this building, on that tower that you came in under, you would have passed three scriptures:

Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son. Where there is no vision, the people perish. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea.

I think we have been the beneficiaries of.... Certainly our jurisprudence here in Canada has been a beneficiary of our faith background.

Those scriptures, by the way, Chair, are from the Torah as well as the Christian scriptures.

I firmly believe that when fighting for religious freedom.... If you have religious freedom, you have freedom of conscience, freedom of assembly, and freedom of speech. Many of what we call “inalienable” human rights fall out of that.

I'm wondering how you feel in that regard, and if I'm on the right track. Is that a motivation you have?

[Julia Bicknell]

Yes, it is, and coming back, of course, to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, as the Americans would put it, what's the pursuit of happiness? How do you as an individual citizen follow your dream of what it is to be happy? I would argue that it's to have freedom of conscience, to have freedom of belief or no belief.

For me, as someone who happens to have been very privileged to have been born in the U.K., when I've been in these countries and I've seen that just by accident of birth other people happen to have been born in a country where those freedoms are not available to them, part of what motivates me is that if I believe that for every human being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness involve freedom to believe what they choose to believe, then I would want to fight for that right for them as much as I would for my own fellows in the United Kingdom.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

You are kind of an expert on Pakistan. You knew Shahbaz Bhatti, as I did, and as a number of people around the table here did. He was brutally killed. He was the minister for religious minorities.

Has anything changed in Pakistan in regard to the blasphemy laws? Are we seeing any hopeful signs going forward?

[Julia Bicknell]

The latest thing, as I understand it, is that the judiciary agree. The Pakistani judiciary have realized that there are a lot of loopholes in the blasphemy laws, I think particularly in the light of the latest atrocity in Lahore, where, although many Muslims were killed as well, the branch of the Taliban who claimed that bomb said that it was specifically targeted at Christians on Easter Sunday.

I think that a lot of wonderful Pakistani people, the kind of people I met and really loved being with, see that the blasphemy law is something that is abused, and I think the vast majority of Pakistani society realizes that this is an unjust law. The judiciary agrees that it is. They are waiting for their parliament to amend.... They've basically sent that law back to the parliament and said that they want to bring about changes.

From the beginning of this year, as far as I'm aware, nothing much has happened on that, but it would be good for other governments around the world to ask Pakistan what it is doing back in their parliament with this law and to say, “If the judiciary has sent it back and says it needs improving, can we see some action in the parliament?”

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

MP Mendicino is next.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and Ms. Bicknell, thank you for being here and for bringing your worldly experience in journalism to this subcommittee.

There's so much to cover and so little time to do it in, but I'm wondering if we can explore two ideas.

You have already heard some questions from my colleagues about the correlation between religious persecution and the suppression of other fundamental rights, such as freedom of expression. I wonder if you agree with the proposition that there is a correlation between religious persecution and the repression of other fundamental rights, including discrimination based on certain inalienable characteristics like gender, disability, and sexual orientation.

Do you agree with that?

[Julia Bicknell]

Do I agree with the proposition...?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Do you agree with the proposition that along with religious persecution also comes the repression of inalienable human rights like the ones I've just outlined?

[Julia Bicknell]

It can. I'm not saying it always does, but the evidence shows that where there is religious persecution, there is also repression of.... For example, in Boko Haram, there's repression of the rights of women and children. They are raped, tortured, traumatized, abused, taken away from their families.

You have to look at the evidence around the world. Look at Islamic State. What has it done to the women and children, not only Christian but Yazidi women? The evidence is there.

But again, in answer to your question about how you get those facts out, how you get those details out, sometimes it's very difficult to gather that evidence.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I take it you agree as well that in the last 30 years religious persecution has evolved in a very negative way in that we see more violence and more extremism. I think that's fairly self-evident. Indeed, I'm sure it has been covered in many of your stories.

Is that a fair comment?

[Julia Bicknell]

We're in a 24-hour digital media world now, so we are aware of things that are happening on the other side of the world that maybe we weren't aware of previously. These kinds of atrocities were happening in the past, but we didn't necessarily know about them.

Again, the evidence shows...and it's something that you mentioned. The World Watch List that's compiled by Open Doors International every year shows that the rate of religious persecution is rising and that more countries are under religious persecution than ever before. That's not only their research. Peer research from the United States and other reputable research is proving that this is on the rise, and it's on the rise because of a number of factors. You have to look at the evidence, and it's clear.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'll use these last few seconds for the simplest question of all. To what extent does your own personal faith inform your work?

[Julia Bicknell]

Of course it has an impact, but I also have a complete set of what I call BBC DNA in me. My BBC DNA tells me that you have to look at the evidence and you have to tell fairly, reliably, and accurately what's going on. If that involves criticizing church leaders or whatever if they've been involved in abuse, then I will do that. I'm not going to just be an apologist for things I believe to be wrong.

It's hand in hand really. I have a personal faith, but I would argue that enables me to be clear about how I understand other people's faith, including that of Muslims. I would say some of my closest friends in Pakistan when I lived there were Muslims, are Muslims, continue to be Muslims, and they continue to be my friends.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Bicknell.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

I think that is it for questioning for this committee. Once again, I want to thank MP Sweet for recommending you to come in. It's been a very enlightening discussion and one that I know is going to provide a good perspective for us to reflect on long after this meeting is over.

Again, thank you for travelling from London. Thank you to your colleagues who are sitting with you. That's great.

[Julia Bicknell]

Thank you very much.

I would just remind you, as my host Don is here, to go to worldwatchmonitor.org if you want to look out for more.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you for the plug.

We're now going to suspend and go in camera. We'll give the room a couple of minutes to clear.

[Proceedings continue in camera]