Evidence of meeting #89 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cindy Berman  Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative
Peter Talibart  Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual
Mark Trachuk  Partner, Osler, Hoskin & Harcourt LLP, As an Individual

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Sweet

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and bonjour, colleagues. Welcome to the 89th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights. We're continuing our study on child labour and modern slavery.

In front of us we have Peter Talibart, a partner with Seyfarth Shaw, from London. Assisting him will be Mark Trachuk, senior corporate securities partner at the law firm Osler, in Toronto. We also have, by video conference, Cindy Berman, head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative.

I understand that you've been briefed on the amount of time you have for your opening remarks. We'll go to our video conference first, just because it's always hard for people to pay attention to the video conference when there are live people here. Maybe this will help.

Ms. Berman, would you begin your comments, please?

1:10 p.m.

Cindy Berman Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present today.

The Ethical Trading Initiative is a leading multi-stakeholder initiative that includes companies, trade unions, and NGOs tackling labour rights in global supply chains. Its 90 corporate members include major brands and retailers from all over the world with a combined turnover of over 180 billion pounds U.K. sterling, and our trade union members represent 200 million workers in 163 countries.

We have around 17 large and small civil society organizations, and the premise on which ETI operates is that collaborative engagement in tackling complex problems of labour rights and labour abuse in global supply chains is really the most effective and sustainable way forward.

In relation to the themes that you are addressing in your study, I will speak to all of them briefly.

In relation to theme one on the global overview, just this year ETI produced and launched at our House of Commons two guides for companies on tackling child labour as well as forced labour in their operations in global supply chains. They address the drivers as well as the human rights due diligence steps that companies ought to take to address the worst forms of child labour and ensure appropriate oversight where children are working legally.

You no doubt will have had more information about the global picture, but I wanted to highlight a few issues in your study.

Most of the world's child workers are in Asia, particularly South Asia. They work largely in the agricultural sector, but child labour is most common amongst girls in domestic work. That is not surprising, because of gender discrimination.

Boys and girls in child labour are often from the poorest families and come from communities that are subject to discrimination on the basis of their caste, race, ethnicity, or religious minorities. They are often poorly educated and in low-skilled and low-paid jobs, and some are subject to hazardous work that is illegal in almost all countries, although it does persist. Child labour is largely hidden and unlikely to be identified by companies in their audits and also by labour inspectors in their labour monitoring systems.

We believe there is a direct relationship—and the evidence shows that there's a direct relationship—between child labour and the working conditions of adults, as well as a lack of social protection. Where adults are paid such poor wages that they cannot support their families, people are locked out of education, health care, and other opportunities and benefits, and children are far more susceptible to abuse and exploitation.

As such, we would argue that the Canadian government should consider legislation that focuses not only on child labour but also on all forms of forced labour that include adults. The Canadian government's welcome focus on gender also offers a particular opportunity to highlight the specific vulnerabilities that girls and women face in forced and child labour.

In theme two, you've asked about case studies and the use of child labour in textile and garment production in South Asia and the seafood and fishing industry in Southeast Asia. ETI has been working in both. I'll set out briefly what we have been doing in these areas and how we see the issues.

The cotton-spinning sector is the backbone of the Tamil Nadu textile sector. It accounts for over 65% of the total number of spinning mills in India and employs around a half a million workers.

Mainly young women aged 16 to 21 are employed as so-called apprentices. Workers often receive no formal contract. About half stay in company-run hostels. Their movement is restricted. There is widespread non-payment of minimum wages. Bear in mind that a minimum wage for textile apprentices is 330 Indian rupees per day. That's six Canadian cents a day. This Sumangali scheme is a scheme where workers are given a lump sum payment after three years of work. It is less prevalent than it was, but it does remain in some rural areas and in some centres.

The working conditions remain poor in these sectors, with long working hours, exposure to cotton dust, limited opportunities for women to be promoted into supervisory positions, widespread allegations of sexual harassment and abuse, a limited ability for unions to operate, and a lack of effective grievance mechanisms.

What is ETI doing? We have been working in this area for some time and recognize the endemic cultural social norms on top of what is a highly exploitative supply chain. We believe that women workers themselves need to be agents of their own change, so we are focused on empowering them through training and through engaging with their supervisors, managers, and spinning mill owners to address the lack of dialogue and engagement, very poor wages, and working conditions.

We've been very pleased with our work and have also engaged with the local authorities to improve the regulatory environment. We have done an evaluation recognizing that we have reached around 16,000 workers, but there is still a very long way to go. The apprenticeship law has been abolished in theory, but we have yet to see its implementation in practice.

To turn to Southeast Asia and the seafood sector, you will know well that exploitation and abuse have been taking place in this sector for some time. That has been fairly well documented. There are many actors engaged now and there is some progress being made, but the progress is slow, for a number of reasons.

The scale of the problem is enormous and many of the companies that are most problematic are not the big brands and retailers, but local Thai industry. The authorities are weak. Legislative change is weak. Political will and action are limited. Problem-solving is weak. Also, migrants are facing discriminatory legislation, which means that many of them choose to migrate illegally and work illegally, putting them at greater risk of exploitation and abuse.

There is limited space for democratic civil society organizations and challenge. There are gross corporate abuse and neglect, as well as criminal trafficking activities, which is hard to eliminate.

There is a lack of ethical recruitment agencies. The worst exploitation is to be found in deep-sea paired trawlers that are far from land, some of them 24-7 operations that don't dock, even at port. Transshipment means that they never have to return for inspections. Vessel owners are very powerful and often corrupt and absent.

In our view, there are many new international initiatives that are not joined up, and they are not necessarily addressing root causes or long-term solutions. The EU yellow card and the U.S. TIP reports help to keep the Thai government and business focused, but progress is slow, and we recognize that there are many different angles to work on simultaneously.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Sweet

Ms. Berman, the time is almost up. I need you to conclude as quickly as possible, please.

1:20 p.m.

Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative

Cindy Berman

In relation to transparency and supply chains legislation, the ETI was very active in the U.K. Modern Slavery Act in calling for section 54. We think it has been an important driver of change, but we do note significant gaps in its implementation and compliance. We would call on the Canadian government to seriously consider the extent to which the right resources are being put in place to monitor compliance and the effectiveness of the legislation.

We also think there is a risk for the Canadian government in focusing only on child labour as well as focusing on two sectors, because forced labour and child labour are widespread and move across sectors.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thanks, Ms. Berman. We'll have to conclude there. If there's a way for you to fit in some of your information during the question rotation, you can do that.

Of course, for both witnesses, if there's anything you're not able to share with us today, a written submission to the clerk afterwards is something that we welcome.

We'll move on to Mr. Talibart, please, for 10 minutes.

December 5th, 2017 / 1:20 p.m.

Peter Talibart Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual

Good afternoon, everyone.

I was making notes while listening to Cindy's presentation. I endorse the opinion that there's a risk in only focusing on child labour. I think this is a complex problem. It's hard to discern what's worse, child labour or forced labour generally, but that's a non sequitur.

My argument today—I've written it out for you—is really that there are some very good reasons why Canada should be legislating for a human trafficking supply chain law at the earliest opportunity. We all know that this is a horrible thing, and I'm not going to tell you horrible stories. I'll just give you a bit of legal analysis.

Other jurisdictions such as the U.K., France, and the European Union have already legislated to address this global crime, and the brave parliamentarians in those jurisdictions have chosen to address this as one of the major issues of our life and times.

Now, Canada has a choice. We can follow in the jet trail of those other countries or we can try to get into the fight a little ourselves. I'm going to try to convince you that the latter is the best choice for Canada.

Everyone's worried about burdening business with increased regulation, but that's a bit of a misconception. Canadian companies are already facing requirements in other jurisdictions to monitor their supply chains. The model that seems to be in development internationally is a website statement talking about avoidance measures; I know you've heard about this in relation to the British and French models, and I probably don't need to repeat those. That is the template that started in California, and it seems that it's being adopted across the piece.

It's incorrect to assume that the law of the United States is silent on the issue of human trafficking. The United States has several powerful laws that it may choose to call into play. In my written submissions, I talk to you about the linkage between market access and human rights, and that's something that as a committee I think you need to consider very carefully.

The laws in the other jurisdictions are already hitting thousands of Canadian companies in multiple ways, principally in two ways. The first is that if Canadian companies are directly doing business in those jurisdictions or have registered offices in those jurisdictions, as per the French law, there's a direct application of those local laws. Take the U.K. Modern Slavery Act as an example. Any Canadian company doing $10 worth of work in the United Kingdom is caught by the provisions of the Modern Slavery Act.

The second way is something Canadian businesses haven't started to be confronted with yet, and that is that every major European company, including French companies and British companies, has to do an audit of their own supply chains. Canadian companies are shortly going to face a bit of an avalanche of questionnaires if they themselves are part of the supply chain of those companies. They're going to be asked what they're doing to ensure that their supply chains are clean, as a condition of continued business and continued supply of those goods and services to foreign companies. If Australia passes a law—and Australia is obviously ahead of us—the same thing will apply with Australian companies.

Because Canadian companies haven't had to ask themselves yet whether their supply chains are clean, they're going to have a bit of a problem in complying with those requests.

Lawyers have to admit that the rise and rise of human trafficking is like Rana Plaza: a catastrophic failure of the international legal system. There are multiple laws that should have prevented Rana Plaza from happening. They did not. Human trafficking is effectively illegal everywhere, but it's growing everywhere.

The traditional legal approach of a penal law, a sanction-based law, is failing, so people who are thinking about how to address this crime are looking more at economic laws. By “economic” laws, I mean laws that, one, have the market as the policeman or -woman, and two, strive to take the profitability out of human trafficking.

A massive number of trafficked people are actually in the supply chain of the legitimate business sectors. The easiest way for the traffickers—who, by the way, are winning at the moment—to make a profit is to introduce the fruits of the labour of the trafficked people into the legitimate supply chains of global business.

The sort of laws that are being envisaged and passed by the U.K. and France are actually making this a boardroom issue and aligning companies against themselves, their employees, their consumers, and their shareholders directly or indirectly supporting this horrible crime. That's my suggestion for what Canada should do.

Supply chain transparency laws may at least start to take some of the profits out of the human trafficking industry. We don't even know how big it is. The ILO thinks it's 24 million people. I've put a quote in the notes that suggests there could be as many as 46 million people working in slavery conditions on Planet Earth in 2017.

The ILO's estimate for the global untaxed illegal profits of this crime is $150 billion U.S. per year, but that was based on their initial estimate that there were 21 million people trafficked around the world. If the later figures of 46 million are accurate, it's likely that the global illegal profits of this crime are more in the region of $400 billion U.S. a year. It's going to continue to grow because it's so profitable, so countries that want to do something about it are going to have to try to take the profits out of it with their domestic laws.

I can talk to you a bit about the history of the Modern Slavery Act and lesser-known history about how section 54 developed. All I can say on that front is that I was there, but that's a bit of a non sequitur. If you want to talk about that in the course of the questions, I'm very happy to do that.

The sort of law that we're proposing and we've seen with the MSA is quite consistent with the way that international corporate governance is developing anyway. Companies now have a greater consideration for the future, the environment, and global sustainability. The old idea that the directors were serving the immediate financial interests of the current shareholders has been consigned to the past.

In conclusion, Canadian law actually needs to get ahead of this issue. We are way late to this party. Other jurisdictions are taking a view, and that's going to catch Canadian companies. Investors in those countries have a greater insight into the risk profile of Canadian companies than Canadians do. That's nuts. We need to do something about that.

Modern slavery is the new bribery. If you think about it, 15 years ago, there were maybe two or three countries that had bribery laws, and then what happened was that if you didn't have one you were considered a corrupt jurisdiction and that became a bit of an economic issue. We're going to see a proliferation of modern slavery laws across the globe, and Canada should be one of the countries that leads in this direction rather than following in the footsteps of other jurisdictions.

Finally, we all know that there's a constitutional issue here. I've suggested in my written submission that Canada might want to look at the Human Rights Act. We've heard in the context of Cindy's presentation and others that there is a link between modern slavery and discrimination on the basis of age, nationality, race, or gender. I posit to you that we can look at this issue with a view to tweaking extant Canadian laws, and that might actually allow Canada to take a stand more quickly than we otherwise are stuck with if we're drafting from scratch.

Thank you.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Talibart.

Colleagues, if you'll forgive me in advance, I'll be brutal and that way maximize the amount of people who can ask questions.

Mr. Anderson.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Ms. Berman, you mentioned that you have prepared for companies two guides dealing with child and forced labour. Can we have an opportunity to have those presented to committee as part of our testimony?

1:30 p.m.

Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative

Cindy Berman

We'd be very happy to share that with you, yes, of course.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you.

I want to follow up on something you were talking about in terms of fishing and seafood workers being offshore and being outside the supervision of authorities. Do you have any specific recommendations for us? That's a little bit of a different situation than it is when you can go into a factory and identify the people who are working there. It seems like a much more difficult challenge to deal with that. Do you have any various specific things we might be able to recommend later?

1:30 p.m.

Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative

Cindy Berman

We would like to advocate that inspection of vessels be ensured and argued for in all jurisdictions. I'm obviously not an international specialist in the international waters, but we do argue that in some cases.... For example, the International Transport Workers' Federation has the right to board ships and inspect conditions, and that should be in waters that are within national jurisdictions as well as international.

We also would like to argue for a consistent law that requires shipowners as well as managers to be part of a better international governance arrangement.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Then try to fit that into supply chain accountability, I assume...?

Both of you have both suggested that we should be focusing not just on child labour but on forced labour and child labour at the same time, and I asked this question the other day: do we risk losing our focus and risk our effectiveness on this issue by putting this all together?

Our study is about child labour. Do we risk losing effectiveness on the child labour front by combining forced labour and child labour? We've seen the statistics in terms of both of those issues, but I'm interested in your opinions on that.

1:30 p.m.

Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual

Peter Talibart

I don't think you do. Frankly, the solution for one is also going to be the solution for the other, so you have an opportunity to kill two evils with one stone by combining them.

1:30 p.m.

Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative

Cindy Berman

I would fully agree with that. I think that legislation only focused on child labour, and even initiatives, projects, or programs that have been focused only on child labour and eradicating child labour, have all recognized that one has to address families, communities, and wider factors that push children into a child labour situation.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I have a question on the difference between the U.K. legislation and the French legislation. I understand that the U.K. legislation doesn't require companies to take positive due diligence measures, but to report whether they've done so. France is requiring them to do that. Do you see that as an improvement? What would you recommend that we take a look at here as we move ahead?

1:30 p.m.

Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual

Peter Talibart

I do see that as an improvement.

Look at the way the needle has moved on these laws. It started out in California with the lightest touch, which was a website statement confined to a couple of sectors and, frankly, it could have been written by anyone. It was the province of the marketing department, as often as not. Then, when companies were queried on the accuracy of the statement, the stock response was, “The guy who drafted this has left the company.”

The U.K. advanced that needle a bit by, one, applying this supply chain transparency statement requirement to all industries and, two, having directors sign off on it.

To your point, France has gone half a step farther and has put in that additional requirement. I think it's symptomatic of the way this issue is evolving in legislation around the world.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I'm rapidly running out of time. Do you think we can come to agreement in Canada, given the multi-jurisdictional components of what we're talking about here and given the major challenges we've had in even putting a national regulator in place? Is it possible? What's going to bring that about?

1:35 p.m.

Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual

Peter Talibart

Absolutely it's possible: the constitutional lawyers are gnashing their teeth because they can't copy jurisdictionally the Modern Slavery Act. The U.K. is one jurisdiction, so if effectively a federal U.K. law hits all companies, we can't do that in Canada because of our division of powers.

Don't underestimate your ability to influence other laws. If the federal government makes an important step, it doesn't matter that federal law will restrict its application: you're putting a marker down for both the provinces and the rest of the world.

There are a bunch of ways for you to do this, from a customs law to, as I suggested, the Human Rights Act, and you can look at the federal business legislation. If you want to do it, you can do it. Success will be measured in the introduction of the concept of supply chain transparency for human beings into the Canadian legal system.

The law doesn't have to be perfect. Legal systems take these concepts and they work them, so absolutely you can do it.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I have one more question on that if I have time: should the benefits that are available through the diplomatic system—trade commissioner services and EDC services, support, and assistance—be tied to due diligence in supply chain responsibilities?

1:35 p.m.

Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual

Peter Talibart

I'm not sure I understand all of those regimes. I apologize.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

For example, there's funding from EDC to overseas to be able to develop their markets and those kinds of things. I'm just asking you if you think those should be tied together.

1:35 p.m.

Partner, Seyfarth Shaw LLP, As an Individual

Peter Talibart

Well, yes, but you have to be careful. Again, we told Cheryl of a situation that happened once in which there was a development project that was linked to having no child labour. It successfully delivered a project free of child labour, but child prostitution in the locality went through the roof, so be careful, because you can actually make things worse if you go too far.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fragiskatos, go ahead.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair, and thanks to all of you for appearing today.

I want to pick up on the second-last question that my colleague raised with respect to constitutionality. Thank you very much for the briefing note you sent, Mr. Talibart, but I do worry that constitutionality and the federal makeup of our country could stand in the way of meaningful legislation actually having teeth and having an effect.

In your note, you say that “Canadian constitutional lawyers will struggle to craft a federal Canadian version” of the Modern Slavery Act, specifically section 54, which is perhaps the most relevant section because it focuses on supply chains. Then you expand on that and say that “in most cases provincial laws (securities and company laws as an example) are far more relevant to the modification of Canadian business behavior than Federal laws are”.

I know that you've touched on this already and you've cited examples of how a federal law could work, but if the government were to move forward and pass legislation that contains the spirit and principles of the Modern Slavery Act, could we end up in a situation where the result is that it doesn't have a real effect, and that the provinces actually have the power to legislate changes that would really have an impact on supply chains and the monitoring of supply chains?

I worry about legislation being crafted that doesn't actually have teeth and stands as a symbolic example. Does that actually have an effect, a positive effect?

1:35 p.m.

Head, Modern Slavery Strategy, Ethical Trading Initiative

Cindy Berman

I just wonder whether there are some examples in the U.K. I can't comment on the constitutional situation in Canada, but in the U.K. we have seen in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Parliament some strengthening of legislation as a result of national legislation on the Modern Slavery Act. Some of them go even further. It may be worth looking at that as a model.