Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 16th, 2021

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It was very interesting to listen to the witnesses.

Thank you very much for being here and sharing this information with us. Of course, it's very horrifying to hear, and I'm deeply concerned by the information you've brought to us today. In particular I'm quite concerned when we hear of things such as “genocide”, when we hear “impending genocide”, when we hear such things as a “slow Rwanda”.

We know that the media often plays a really important role in these kinds of conflicts, these kinds of human rights abuses. I would really like some information on the role the media is playing in this particular conflict.

Maybe I could start with you, Prof. Garry.

[Prof. Hannah Garry]

I'm going to defer to the other two witnesses. I don't feel sufficiently authoritative on that question.

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Dr. Fomunyoh...?

[Dr. Christopher Fomunyoh]

It's unfortunate that the international media doesn't have as much access and that the local national media sometimes has felt constrained in its ability to go into the conflict zones and to report adequately and honestly on the impact of this conflict. Media relations in Cameroon are also deplorable, and there is a whole host of journalists in prison. That could be the subject of a separate hearing.

The space for media reporting is thus very restrained in Cameroon. Even the space for international human rights organizations is probably non-existent. That explains why organizations have to rely on other sources to obtain information. I think a fact-finding mission would also open up the space for media to go in and do adequate reporting on the current crisis.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Tembon.

[Efi Tembon]

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, Cameroon is one of the worst places for journalists in sub-Saharan Africa. Many journalists have been killed. Some are in prison. It has been a very difficult time for journalists. International media outlets have not really covered the Cameroon conflict that well. The BBC has done some work, reporting some massacres, reporting some issues that are going on and interviewing people.

The work that has really been done well has been done by human rights organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Even right there in Canada, there is a database project at the University of Toronto that is collecting data on the atrocities. Some of that information will be found right there. There are many other organizations that are also collecting data about what's going on. Oxford University has a project that has been studying the conflict, the root causes, and also collecting data.

Those have helped, but as far as the international media or even local media are concerned, it has been very difficult because of the violence. It's difficult to actually go in there. The government soldiers, or even the other fighters on the ground, don't let you easily on the ground to cover what's going on.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Just to be clear, the local media is not making the conflict worse. From your perspective, it is not inflaming the conflict.

[Efi Tembon]

In the beginning, it wasn't easy. You have the media, the Southern Cameroons journalists, who want to report what's going on and they are silenced. However, you have the public media that is being used to stir up problems, a lot of hate speech even through the media, not just on social media but also the media. We've gathered a lot of that information that's being used by the government media or media houses that support the government against what's going on.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I think I heard you say that social media is part of that as well.

[Efi Tembon]

Yes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

When we look at this and you talk about the international media not covering this, that this conflict is not getting the international attention it needs from the multilateral institutions we work with and bilateral relationships, why do you think that is? Why are we not seeing the United Nations act? Why is this such a slow-moving ship at the moment?

I'll add a question onto that: Has there been any change now that we have a new administration in the U.S. that seems much more interested in playing a meaningful role internationally? Have we seen a change at all yet?

[Efi Tembon]

We've been troubled by the relationship between the western governments and Cameroon, because each time you talk especially with the U.S. leadership, Cameroon is a partner. Even though they are carrying out horrific abuses, they see them as a partner because of the interests of these different western governments in Cameroon, so they look away when atrocities are committed. When I look at people such as Mugabe, I don't think Mugabe did one-tenth of what Mr. Biya has done, but Mr. Biya gets away with what's going on.

The other issue is that Mr. Biya and his government hired western lobbyists in D.C. In our advocacy work, we've had to fight against those lobby firms that deal with the media, lobby firms that deal with people in politics. It's like fighting and trying to go through a concrete wall.

I'm happy that we are getting this access now to be able to share with Parliament and with other politicians and making some inroads. However, it has not been easy, I think because of French interests in the region and also just because of the fight against Boko Haram. It clouded issues, because Cameroon is one of the countries involved in the fight against Boko Haram in the Sahel, and that makes it difficult.

For the western governments that are involved, they are in a very difficult position: How do they fight against this crime that is going on and also have Cameroon as a partner against Boko Haram?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

If either of the other witnesses—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's your time for now.

We're moving into the second round, but at one point the vote will come up. I'm going to divide the time up to about two and a half minutes for each of the parties. We'll start with Ms. Iqra Khalid from the Liberal Party, for two and a half minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your testimony.

I just want to pick up on some of the recommendations that the witnesses have made. There are a lot of similarities and a lot of the things you're asking for are very similar.

There is just one thing I want to ask Professor Garry, then I'll maybe ask Dr. Fomunyoh to also comment.

Professor, in one of your recommendations, you had asked for a fact-finding commission. Dr. Fomunyoh had said that the military has been used to resolve political differences, etc. How would you describe, or how would it be best to develop or to get access for that fact-finding commission? Would the current government be able to or find it desirable to do so?

I'll start with you, Professor, and then I'll ask Dr. Fomunyoh to also comment.

[Prof. Hannah Garry]

Thank you for that question. It's a very important one.

Establishing a fact-finding mission or commission of inquiry obviously has to be done through multilateral forums, either through the United Nations or through the African Union, and in coordination with states that can apply pressure on the current government to allow for access to the impacted regions in particular, and also for there to be ensured security for those investigators in the process.

Without a multilateral, independent commission, I don't think it would be possible, as you note, given the instability in the region and the current state of denial, frankly, by the current government with regard to what's going on.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

Dr. Fomunyoh.

[Dr. Christopher Fomunyoh]

I will echo that and add that in previous atrocities committed in countries such as Myanmar—we saw that with the Rohingya massacre, so a genocide—the United Nations human rights commission was instrumental in that regard.

I think if Canada begins to take the lead with some of its partners, it can galvanize the amount of international attention that is required to then get the United Nations human rights commission to step forward and take responsibility to conduct such a high-level fact-finding mission.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

I think that concludes my time.

I appreciate your being here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

Now we're moving to Mr. Scott Reid for two and a half to three minutes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

A comparison has been made to Rwanda, which strikes me as not fully accurate. One of the characteristics of Rwanda, it seems to me, was that there were two conflicting groups within a country that was seen as geographically indissoluble, so there was a battle in that context.

In the case of Cameroon, there is an area in Southern Cameroons that has declared itself—or at least some participants there have declared it—the independent republic of Ambazonia. How does one deal with that question? Is there a realistic prospect of convincing the people who have tried to declare independence that they should rejoin—and be satisfied with being a part of—Cameroon, as long as certain things are guaranteed for them?

Alternatively, is it the case that the Cameroon government can be reconciled with this area becoming independent? You have to have one side concede to the other side, winning out on this issue—and I'm not sure which side it should be—or you can never actually come to a resolution, just to an unending conflict.

I'm not sure who to throw that to. Why don't we start with Professor Garry and then see who else can comment on it?

[Prof. Hannah Garry]

Thank you for that question.

In the clinic, we do not personally take a position with regard to political outcomes, nor to the solution with regard to the northwest and southwest regions.

What we do take a position on is the need to put pressure on the parties for an inclusive dialogue, where all options are on the table and there is real discussion with regard to each of the opposing perspectives on the regions and what the outcome should be.

I will pass it off to Dr. Fomunyoh and Mr. Tembon, who have more to say in detail about this.

[Dr. Christopher Fomunyoh]

Honourable member, your question just underscores the need for a negotiated solution to this crisis. Between the reunification in 1961 and 2016, no one in what was the former British Southern Cameroons was killed because of being an anglophone. Between 2016 and today, thousands of people have been killed. Villages have been burned. People are internally displaced. People are refugees. There is no way that this population will all of a sudden reconcile itself without a negotiated solution to the crisis.

Secondly, an opinion poll conducted in the anglophone communities about three years ago showed that around 68% of the population wanted to go their separate way. Two years later, in 2020, a second opinion poll was conducted. It showed that the number had risen to 86%. That means the more the government persists with a military solution to this crisis, the more it will antagonize the population to the point where reconciliation may become extremely difficult, if not impossible. It's in everyone's interest that the parties be brought to the table right now, to sort out their differences and come up with a position that will stop the killing and create an environment in which people can coexist and live side by side or together.