Evidence of meeting #15 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was core.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC
It was not a direct instruction by the company itself. It was the contractors they hired who were conducting this.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes. It was the Sudanese public security forces. In many cases of human rights abuse, it is security forces that engage in this, but that doesn't absolve the company of a responsibility to ensure that those who they engage are screened and to have clear instructions not to engage in violations of human rights.
Conservative
Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I appreciate that.
Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you.
We'll move to MP Brunelle-Duceppe from the Bloc for seven minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Simons, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Your testimony will help us shed light on the numerous human rights violations committed by businesses that are tarnishing our reputation and making a mockery of our values abroad.
At our last meeting, Ms. Meyerhoffer told us she was sure she had enough powers and resources to fulfil her mandate, but she also admitted to having fewer than 10 people in her service and did not specify what her budget is.
The magnitude of the task is enormous. There are 200 Canadian mining companies in Mexico alone. Am I wrong in saying that it is difficult to be reassured? Do you share Ms. Meyerhoffer's optimism concerning her current resources?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you very much for that question.
I'd have to look at the full budget to understand exactly what resources she has, but I do agree that Canada is host to a majority of the world's largest mining companies, many of which operate overseas. As you point out, there are a significant number operating in Mexico, but also in other parts of Latin America and in Africa.
It is important to have a CORE, an ombudsperson's office, that is sufficiently resourced so that it can undertake investigations of complaints. If the office doesn't have the power to investigate, then it can have all the resources it wants, but it needs those powers as well to compel witnesses and documents.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Since you brought this up, should the ombudsman's investigative power be essential? If so, how would it change the outcome of the many human rights violation situations right now? What do you think that would change in concrete terms?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you very much. That's a great question.
I think one of the things that would change is that we would be provided with—the Canadian public and also the government—public reports that have been properly investigated in relation to allegations that have been made against Canadian mining companies. We would know what the situation is with respect to those allegations.
Providing those public reports, then, will inform not only citizens but also the government, in terms of what other steps it should take in order to regulate corporations. I think it would provide a lot of very useful information for the government, in that sense.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you for the answer. I agree with you on that point.
I want to keep discussing Ms. Meyerhoffer's comments. She has said that the power to recommend that government support be withdrawn was effective. I was not convinced of the effectiveness of that kind of a recommendation. Do you think it would be enough?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In terms of sanctioning an entity...? Is that what you're saying?
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
That's right. Do you think the power to recommend that government support be withdrawn is sufficient?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think she could also recommend other types of remedial action. She could recommend that a Canadian company pay some sort of remedy or that sort of thing.
This is where the powers would be necessary. It would be very unfortunate for a company if they withdrew support without having looked at the full facts because they couldn't compel witnesses and documents. I think that it's in the companies' interests as well to have a CORE with the proper powers here.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I have put my next question to other witnesses, but I think it is important to put it to you, as well.
Many Canadians think that Canada is a leader in human rights. We are certainly not the worst on the planet, but I am not sure we are as good as we think we are. How do you think Canada compares to other countries when it comes to its businesses operating abroad respecting human rights?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I think it's difficult to always compare Canada.
Canada does have a problem in terms of its reputation with respect to its extractive companies operating abroad. There have been different studies done that have documented the human rights violations that have been associated with Canadian companies operating abroad. There are a lot of Canadian companies out there, so if they are not regulated, then it's going to look bad compared with other countries that have fewer companies out there.
Canada does not have a good reputation. If you go a lot of places in Latin America—you brought up Mexico—you will find that Canadian mining companies do not make it easy for Canadians to go to those countries.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I know that I don't have much time left, so I will put a question to you quickly.
To your knowledge, does—
Liberal
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
It's over? That's too bad.
Thank you so much, Ms. Simons.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
We're moving to MP McPherson now from the NDP, for seven minutes.
Thank you.
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I'll try to use Alexis's 10 seconds to give value.
Thank you so much for being here today. This is very valuable for us, and your expertise is very welcome.
I come from the international development sector, and I spent a number of years in my career before politics working on this particular issue. You have just spoken about the impacts on companies, and the fact that a strong CORE ombudsperson is actually good for those companies that are acting with ethical behaviour.
I spoke to a number of representatives from the mining sector. I've spoken to representatives from the Mining Association of Canada, and they say that they have a framework, that they have sustainable mining standards already and that they don't need our CORE ombudsperson to be able to compel testimony.
Do you think that's sufficient, and why or why not?
I think I know your answer, but I'll let you respond.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I appreciate the question, but I guess it goes back to allowing corporations to self-regulate. Of course, there are companies that have good business practices in this regard, but there are always the laggards. We've looked at self-regulation over the last decade. It has been absolutely insufficient in terms of preventing companies in any systematic way from engaging or becoming complicit in violations of human rights.
I don't think what the Mining Association of Canada has in place is sufficient. It's good that they do have these business practices, but it is certainly not sufficient.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
In fact, the good players, or the good mining companies, will be tarred with the same brush because of the behaviour of the bad companies if we don't have a strong ombudsperson who can compel testimony and witnesses. Is that what you're saying?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, that's exactly right. They will be tarred with the same brush.
For the companies that believe [Technical difficulty—Editor] good business practices and engaging in human rights due diligence, making sure that any allegations are looked into or making sure that they don't actually commit violations of human rights, if they're actually doing that, then they have nothing to fear from a CORE that has powers to compel witnesses and documents.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Okay.
One of the other [Technical difficulty—Editor] the ombudsperson had spoken about to this committee [Technical difficulty—Editor] power of naming and shaming or the power of these voluntary measures. Again, could you comment on whether or not you think those things are sufficient to ensure that all Canadian companies are not wrecking the reputation of Canadians around the world?