Evidence of meeting #17 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ncp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Moran  Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

We'll be moving now to the Conservatives for seven minutes.

Mr. Reid, you have the floor.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To our witness, I hereby pledge to be less hostile than Mr. McKay, which is, I suppose, damning myself with faint praise.

I want to ask a couple of things.

Mr. McKay's questions imply that the problem is that your organization is just ineffectual and leaves the impression that it could not be more effectual, which is, I think, a more appropriate way to handle this question.

You aren't able to initiate your own investigations; you have to wait for complaints to be made. It sounds to me—but you can correct me if I'm wrong—that investigations can only be undertaken against companies that have undertaken to comply with your guidelines. Is it correct that that's the starting point? Is it only companies that have already gone in and made the commitment that they'll comply with your guidelines that can be investigated?

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

That's not entirely correct, Mr. Chair. The Government of Canada expects that all Canadian companies operating abroad will abide by the guidelines, so there is promotion to ensure that they are aware of those. That's the starting point.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Sure, but I think I'm still right. I may have phrased it inexpertly, but am I right that any company that undertakes the assistance of EDC, effectively in so doing, has undertaken, as a kind of part the terms of service, to abide by these guidelines?

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

Export Development Canada is an arm's-length body and has its own ESG and RBC framework fully consistent with the guidelines. I cannot speak to whether or not they are specifically requiring that. What I can say is that the Government of Canada, through the trade commissioner service and Global Affairs Canada, impresses upon Canadian companies the importance of abiding by all laws locally as well as the M and E guidelines.

April 27th, 2021 / 6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Our hearings are with regard to the ombudsperson, as you know. The ombudsperson's ambit, province or area of jurisdiction includes extractive industries and the textile industry, and it excludes some others. The obvious thing I note about these is that the textile industry is all about importing something into Canada that has its origins abroad. Extractive industries are a bit different. Their goal is to use Canadian companies to engage actively in the process of extraction.

Given those two kinds of categories—and I think you can see the clear distinction—where do you find that the issues are tending to arise in the industry sectors you're dealing with? That's relevant because one of the claims that's being made is that the ombudsperson's area of jurisdiction ought to be expanded. The question I have is: Where would one look? Where are the problems, based on your own experience?

6:45 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

As I noted, the majority of our cases, both those dealt with by the Canadian NCP as well as those that we have assisted with, are in the extractive sector.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Okay.

I want to pursue this a bit further. Does it strike you that this is in part because of the fact that the extractive sector is so important and such a large proportion of Canadian investment abroad, or is it disproportionate even when that is taken into account?

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

I'm sorry. Mr. Chair, could I ask that the question be repeated? I'm not sure....

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Yes. I'm sorry. I think the problem was my way of putting it, so let me put it this way.

A very substantial proportion of Canadian investment abroad is in resource extraction. You'd expect, all other things being equal, an equally large proportion of cases to be from that sector. I'm asking whether it's more or less what you'd expect, or whether there are additional problems that indicate that the sector itself is the one that is considered by the NGOs who make these filings to be more problematic than are other industries.

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

As I noted, the majority of our reviews have focused on the extractive sector. That has to do with a number of factors. Extractives are by nature adjacent to communities. There's more opportunity for interaction and for conflict. There are a number of factors at play.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Indigenous land rights issues strike me as being something that would be in play with that sector more frequently than with any other, except maybe forestry.

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

Perhaps. That would be my guess as well.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

You indicated that 20 cases have been undertaken.

I assume you receive complaints, look at them and in some cases say, “This simply can't be pursued,” or “This doesn't have merit,” or “The nature of the evidence provided is inadequate,” or something like that.

Twenty being the number of cases you've looked into, how many would you say have actually come in over that 20-year period? What proportion do you perceive...? I'll leave it to you to figure out the right way of giving an answer back to me.

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

Thank you so much.

In fact, in order to ensure that there is transparency, that NCPs are operating transparently, it is not possible to receive a request for review and not treat it. A report is always issued, so that 20 does represent the range of them.

As I noted, we have four ongoing right now.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Okay, so it's four. That suggests, then, that unless they've all bunched up and been given to you in the last year, that it's not one a year, that there have been periods of relative quiet. It sounds either as though it's getting busier now or that these investigations may take several years to complete, or some combination of the two.

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

We do aim to abide by service standards, but some of the cases do take longer than others do to resolve.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, MP Reid.

Now we're going to be moving to the Bloc and Monsieur Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe for seven minutes.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being with us this evening, Ms. Moran.

It's important to us because this is the last meeting and, frankly, this study is very important. By the way, it was my study, just for the record.

We appreciate your presence here tonight, because I think the NCP, or national contact point, seems to be unfamiliar. This will give us an opportunity to clarify what has been said.

First, I'd like to echo my colleague Mr. McKay of the Liberal Party. Do you think the NCP is outdated, since the creation of the ombudsman position?

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

Thank you. [Technical difficulty—Editor]

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Chair, I imagine you're going to give me back that good time that was lost, right?

6:50 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

I beg your pardon.

The appointment, the establishment of the CORE, is an important step forward with respect to Canada's commitment to human rights by Canadian companies operating abroad. There are important distinctions between the CORE's office and the NCP. As I noted, the ability to initiate cases is one very important distinction.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Okay, but you told us earlier that the problem was that the complaints were voluntary. So if someone wants to file a complaint, the necessary process requires that they put themself at risk to go to the NCP authority, since it's voluntary. It's the same problem with the ombudsman, in our view, and from what we've heard since the study began.

So do you think that investigative powers could enhance the work of the NCP and the ombudsman?

6:55 p.m.

Director General, Trade Portfolio Strategy and Coordination, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Chris Moran

Mr. Chair, I would refer to Minister Ng's comments at the committee on March 23, when the minister did indicate that she believes the Canadian ombudsperson does have the tools and instruments she needs to be an effective mechanism.

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Everyone we talked to, including human rights advocates, didn't really agree with Minister Ng. I imagine that will be part of the recommendations of our study.

You told us about responsible practices and mentioned that it was important to you. I believe you very sincerely in that regard.

Are mining companies really competing with each other as to who will have the most responsible practices?

Since you're promoting it, I guess you're in a position to tell us.