Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2020

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you.

I wonder if we could stay with the same witness.

From the perspective of the Government of Colombia, say, or other South American governments—but let's start with Colombia—their perspective, I assume, would be that the Venezuelans in their country are illegal migrants and economic migrants, not refugees. Would that be essentially correct?

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

I don't think it's that simple. What leads me to say that is the fact that we have about 2.4 million Venezuelans who have been regularized, if I can use that term, in Colombia and also in neighbouring countries. Those people have been afforded status and have been recognized in the country. Across the region, we have hundreds of thousands of asylum claims that have been properly legally filed by Venezuelans.

The situation in the region of Venezuela is what as practitioners we would call “mixed flows”. There are migrants among them. There are asylum seekers among them. There are refugees among them. The Colombian government has provided status to some of those people and has recognized some as refugees, so it's a bit more nuanced than that.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Once you get your status, are you able to enter the workforce—in theory, assuming there are jobs available—and become part of the regular economy, as opposed to the irregular economy or the informal economy?

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

I think Mr. Graham might be able to answer the specifics on the economic regulations that govern the status of migrants or refugees in Colombia or perhaps in the sub-region.

[Jimmy Graham]

Yes, I can speak to that.

It depends on the country, of course, but in Colombia, for one, once they have their status—and I think about close to half of all Venezuelans in the country have it—technically they are able to enter the formal labour market, but then there are problems with employers not recognizing the permits, because there are permits specific to Venezuelans.

There are problems of discrimination and other factors, such that even when they have the legal right, there are still difficulties in getting into the labour market, especially for highly educated refugees. They might have the right to work, but they don't have their degree validated, so it really does them little good until they can do that. There are a lot of barriers and fees associated with trying to get those credentials recognized.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Right. I may be basing this on an out-of-date stereotype, but the impression I have is that in many of these countries, the systems of credentials don't work. There is a fair degree of corruption and bribery as part of getting a business to function. Is that a legitimate summary, as opposed to being a stereotype? Would that weigh particularly heavily on Venezuelans who have had to go to other countries?

[Jimmy Graham]

I'm not sure that I can speak to whether corruption is there or not, but I know that it is a really difficult process, not just for Venezuelans but for other migrants. It has been an issue that has come up a lot in the past for economic migrants as well.

I think there are a lot of barriers that stand in the way. One positive example recently has been Peru. Before the constitutional crisis that's going on, there was an initiative from the government to allow Venezuelans with medical backgrounds to work during the pandemic as doctors, to enter the medical system to support the medical system. That arrangement would be in place moving forward, so clearly there are things that governments can do to expedite this process.

Then, on the flip side, in Colombia the government tried to do the exact same thing, but it met a lot of political backlash from the medical community. You can see that there's a lot of political push-back, not just from the government but from powerful interests.

There are definitely some serious barriers that are in the way, and perhaps corruption also has something to do with it. I can't speak to that.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Fair enough.

I have a basic statistical question. We talk of five million Venezuelans outside of their country. The figure of 2.5 million has come up. Are half of those effectively now credentialed in some form or another, leaving 2.5 million more or less who are not? Do I have my numbers wrong? Is it the case that the 2.5 million are outside of that 5 million?

[Jimmy Graham]

I wouldn't say they're credentialed in terms of having their qualifications recognized, but in terms of having been regularized—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

That's what I should have said.

[Jimmy Graham]

—that's about right. I'd want to check the numbers, but that sounds about right.

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

The figure sits around 2.5 million in the region.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Is that more or less spread evenly, or are most of the people who have been regularized in Colombia?

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

Colombia has the largest proportion of asylum seekers, refugees and migrants present within its borders, but the level of regularization differs from country to country. The bulk are present in Colombia, but you also have large numbers in other countries in the region.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

If the goal is to try to get assistance into these countries in order to have it directed toward Venezuelan migrants, it strikes me that to some degree the local authorities might be resistant to that. They have their own needs, particularly at a time like this.

How does one go about making sure that the money, the resources, get directed to Venezuelan migrants?

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

We are there at the request of the host countries to provide support and assistance in addressing the needs of the foreign nationals that are present in their borders and whatever status they hold. A main pillar of our humanitarian response is to ensure that we also address the needs of host communities. We do that, because host communities are also suffering in a lot of these instances and have faced largely similar consequences. Addressing those needs and providing assistance and support to host communities is an important part of what we do. We try to enhance and further social cohesion as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We're going to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for seven minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for joining us. What we are discussing this evening is really important.

We have to recognize that official border crossings into Colombia have been officially closed since March 2020. It is known that, given the porous border, people have continued to move between the two countries using so-called irregular border crossings, but those crossings are not monitored by official border officers. I will venture on to somewhat shaky ground with my next question, but it's important to me. That may have become paramilitary organizations' territory. I would like to know whether you can answer my next question.

What role do paramilitary organizations currently play when it comes to displaced Venezuelans who are trying to enter the country? This question is beyond important for me.

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

I can begin, and then hand it over to Mr. Graham.

Indeed, we have seen that when border restrictions and movement constraints have been imposed, people have found ways around that by going to irregular border crossing points.

As you rightly point out, along the way they will encounter armed groups, paramilitary groups, and quite frankly, unscrupulous human traffickers and smugglers who profit from their misery and their desperation. People on their journeys, seeking protection and safety elsewhere, will often find themselves the victims of abuse and exploitation. I mentioned at the outset that women and girls in particular have been subject to that.

We know that children have also been victims of human traffickers and smugglers. They have been bought, sold and used in the underground labour market, and for other much more unspeakable breaches, and things that none of us would ever want to see children subjected to. This is something they encounter.

Perhaps Mr. Graham would like to add to that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Apologies, just before Mr. Graham takes the floor, you are saying that women and girls are possibly the biggest victims of paramilitary groups right now in those areas.

Try to keep your answer brief please, Ms. Jamous Imseis.

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

What we're saying is that women and girls are victims indeed, and they have been subjected to exploitation and abuse, including human smuggling and trafficking, but it should be noted that it's not limited to women and girls.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand.

[Rema Jamous Imseis]

It is the case for others as well. We know that children have also been recruited into armed groups through these same practices.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay, thank you.

I'm sorry, Mr. Graham, I just wanted to confirm this.

Go ahead.

[Jimmy Graham]

I would completely agree. I would add that in addition to creating these more difficult conditions for the migrants themselves, it seems to have had the effect of fuelling violence and the standing of the paramilitary groups. That's because they've been able to recruit vulnerable young Venezuelans into the group, so it has had this double effect of being a detriment to the country as well.

This is something that we've seen not just in Latin America but around the world: When countries close borders to desperate populations, usually they don't stop coming in; they just come in through ways that are more harmful to both the migrants and the host country as well.